Creating a new HTML

[Qwerty]

I was thinking about how our options for designing in HTML are rather limited, and unless we use special hacks for CSS, rather difficult to get something fluid, and not all square edges and such.

Then I thought we could create our own designing code, like a new HTML, but with more advanced drawing such as rounded corners and smarter repeating of images.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[toxin]

I think it would be very difficult to do and not sure if there would be much value for it. It would be nice to have HTML to step outside the box and give other shapes to work with. Have a round or  triangle shape and not have to type anything extra to get it to work.(like how HTML tables are now)
Even if you made your own version how do you get it to people so that their browser understands it. Firefox and Opera you could make add ons for them. It would take time for it to become standard.

You could use PHP to create more dynamic layouts. PHP can manipulate images or create its own(example below).  This can be used to round corners and other cool things. GD library for PHP is what is being used .

Code: [Select]

<?php
header("Content-type: image/png");
//Fiddling around with the GD library for PHP
$image = imagecreate(300,300);
$image_bg = imagecolorallocate($image,255,255,255);
$image_line = imagecolorallocate($image,0,0,0);
    $right_black = array(247,0,244,38,245,43,243,46,239,49,239,54,237,55,234,56,241,56,240,59,236,59,239,60,234,61,233,63,230,93,227,108,196,188,300,233,300,0);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$right_black,(count($right_black)/2),$image_line);
    $left_black = array(0,0,0,300,77,300,55,269,81,263,66,259,66,251,93,240,122,249,144,250,143,253,118,300,148,300,169,247,169,237,157,248,129,248,110,243,54,208,24,164,33,142,35,109,24,78,29,0);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$left_black,(count($left_black)/2),$image_line);
    $top_black = array(22,0,53,46,62,49,73,49,81,53,84,57,88,62,95,68,102,71,110,71,97,66,95,64,93,48,96,49,102,46,102,44,109,44,111,55,114,49,117,50,122,51,124,47,125,52,128,45,130,52,132,53,135,54,136,56,139,56,131,52,129,45,131,47,132,46,133,49,134,50,134,47,141,48,123,41,115,41,115,44,121,44,122,46,118,48,114,41,76,47,71,43,118,36,90,31,96,28,71,29,72,23,74,0);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$top_black,(count($top_black)/2),$image_line);
    $left_brow = array(124,36,131,34,124,33,130,33,134,35,136,32,142,32,144,34,148,34,152,38,161,42,167,46,174,39,183,16,180,30,175,43,165,52,166,51,161,60,152,61,150,64,142,51,136,41,132,38,125,36);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$left_brow,(count($left_brow)/2),$image_line);
    imageline($image,97,30,105,30,$image_line);
    imageline($image,115,29,119,29,$image_line);
    imageline($image,113,31,114,31,$image_line);
    imageline($image,121,27,125,27,$image_line);
    imageline($image,97,30,105,30,$image_line);
    imageline($image,100,27,109,27,$image_line);
    imageline($image,94,24,100,24,$image_line);
    imageline($image,124,28,139,29,$image_line);
    $right_eye = array(187,58,191,47,195,43,192,49,196,39,197,31,197,39,196,44,193,47,193,48,195,47,197,43,196,47,198,45,199,38,201,33,200,39,203,34,200,46,208,38,216,38,213,42,218,43,223,44,223,47,204,46,194,51,204,49,229,53,229,55,231,59,227,58,226,63,223,70,218,78,210,83,204,81,196,77,192,71,201,77,211,79,216,77,222,69,227,58,226,55,225,55,222,61,220,64,215,67,219,63,222,58,218,59,215,60,214,57,218,56,218,54,214,54,213,57,211,59,209,59,208,56,195,58,213,53,218,52,216,51,202,50,191,54,189,56);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$right_eye,(count($right_eye)/2),$image_line);
    imageline($image,224,45,229,45,$image_line);
    imageline($image,224,43,230,43,$image_line);
    imageline($image,220,42,225,42,$image_line);
    imageline($image,227,47,232,47,$image_line);
    imageline($image,216,41,220,41,$image_line);
    imageline($image,226,35,228,35,$image_line);
    imageline($image,218,36,224,36,$image_line);
    imageline($image,228,39,238,42,$image_line);
    imageline($image,232,35,239,40,$image_line);
    $nose = array(163,132,166,123,161,113,155,108,143,109,142,112,140,115,137,116,134,120,131,127,133,140,140,146,144,151,153,157,165,156,166,162,170,163,170,157,176,150,190,145,181,146,178,143,171,137,161,137,157,136,144,134,137,134,136,126,140,119,145,115,156,118,158,128);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$nose,(count($nose)/2),$image_line);
    $mouth = array(191,173,182,178,176,179,170,178,163,180,158,180,152,177,141,176,126,175,118,173,111,170,114,175,108,176,111,177,116,177,125,178,140,179,147,180,159,183,165,182,175,181,180,180,184,181,188,182,187,177,191,174);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$mouth,(count($mouth)/2),$image_line);
    $nose_edge = array(190,86,190,103,190,104,190,85);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$nose_edge,(count($nose_edge)/2),$image_line);
    $chin = array(133,191,135,196,140,198,144,203,153,205,160,202,166,200,171,198,171,196,164,195,162,191,147,190,142,192,138,192);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$chin,(count($chin)/2),$image_line);
    $chin2 = array(147,227,146,239,142,247,151,248,158,248,155,238,154,236,151,230,149,225);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$chin2,(count($chin2)/2),$image_line);
    $shirt = array(149,300,170,247,170,237,180,218,187,205,196,188,300,233,300,300);
    $gray = imagecolorallocate($image,46,45,29);
    imagefilledpolygon($image,$shirt,(count($shirt)/2),$gray);
imagepng($image);
imagedestroy($image);
?>

found here http://www.webmaster-forums.net/web-programming-and-application-development/php-art

[Qwerty]

Well, it doesn't have to be a standard, it could be a new kind of browser.

People can choose to use a HTML browser with basic formatting...

Or a new format browser that has advanced drawing and stuff...

Or we could just draw the game as a giant image and put hyperlinks on specific parts...

[Nox]

I think that generaly - improving html/css abilities is really interesting idea and if someone would be really enthusiasted it might be taken a step further and promote support in browsers when having enough of materials.

Just recently I took a look and - HTML 4.01 was created almost 10 years ago, last errata 8 years ago, XHTML is not really younger. XHTML 2 group was cancelled (although some people want to continue outside w3c) and the whole thing seems so rigid to me (although it might have it's advantages) - I mean in last 10 years there was nothing really new (HTML5 is not out as far as I know, I don't know)... everything goes in IT very quickly but improving HTML and CSS and implementation into browsers is so slow that it's sad (I think that CSS3 is not completely supported in any of new browsers, but feel free to prove me wrong).


BTW I yesterday found this: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/06/25/35-css-lifesavers-for-efficient-web-design/ but these are php/javascript support things

[Qwerty]

I would be interested in creating a new browser, and a new website formatting language, but no idea where to start, and have failed to find any tutorials/guides on HTML rendering.

-----

Ok, I've been looking at the Mozilla Project (The guys who made FireFox) and it seems they have a project there called Gecko, which is the HTML Renderer for FireFox. We could modify this to include other display options for design.

[toxin]

Creating something new and exclusive would restrict a lot of users form using it. If it is not supported by the big browsers than a person could not view a website made with the new HTML and you would have to have something saying they need (NAME HERE) to view this site. As it is now I can not view flash only sites and see that and it is annoying.

Lets say you got the code done. How do you get other to download it? How do non-web designers understand what it does or why the should use it? 

I can see one what to get this wide spread Myspace. If you got this done and got layouts on it using your new code showing how to do cool and unique things than yes you would have no problem making this a standard.

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@Qwerty some links you may have or been to if not hope they help.
http://webkit.org/ 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layout_engine
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Gecko 

mozilla.org may have a lot of the info you are looking for. It may be a slow start but you could find a lot of support for it and get something up and running. The code is out of my knowledge base one reason I have not put much thought in it. It would be nice to see some fresh ideals like Nox said the web standers are aging.

[Qwerty]

I found a the very basic of Gecko and a (hopfully) simple include into a C++ enviroment. If I hope it is what I think it is, I should be able to have the basic Gecko HTML Renderer in a window soon. Once I get to that stage, I can start modifying the code to allow for more advanced drawing.

[toxin]

Good luck. Try  to  support Linux when you get something out.

[Chris]

You will lose all school, university, workplace players (since they are not allowed to install plugins). Also quite a lot of home players will decide to not install it as well.

[Qwerty]

Well, I don't intend to use it for my game immedietly, I want to start a development chain of a new HTML with more design options. Its not really a plugin either, its a whole new program that is similar to web browsers now, but it can take more HTML commands, and CSS styling options, such as cornering and anything else I can think of.

[karnedge]

This is seriously reinventing the wheel. Creating a new HTML rendering language that other browsers could adapt would better. No one is going to use some newly developed browser for some new rendering language they don't understand that less than 1% websites use it.

[Qwerty]

Well if it becomes any good other browsers will just adapt to add the new drawing functions

[JGadrow]

Ok. A couple of points about this line of thought:

This is a bad idea. Why? For the same reasons we're still fighting non-semantic mark-up in documents. In the Before Times, Microsoft and Netscape were at war over their browsers. Each created custom / proprietary coding standards which caused a lot of confusion for web developers. What you're doing would, at best, usher in that era again. Realistically, you're just wasting your time. I would recommend that, if you really want to help the language, you apply to the W3C.

Also, HTML5 is currently in Editor's Draft status as of the time of this posting. So, it's fledgling but it'll grow into the new standard. This is, currently, going to add MANY new tags to describe common data. <header>, <footer>, and <menu> anyone? HTML is only the data description component, however. The rendering component is CSS.

CSS3 is still in Working Draft status but it is slowly moving towards Candidate Recommendation status. CSS3 will be adding more rendering abilities so that rounded objects and such will be easier to achieve with less images and non-semantic mark-up. The sheer reality is, these technologies will be out and recommended well before anything cooked up by a new startup would have a chance to take root.

If you're really gung-ho about creating something that's semantic, this is the purpose of XML / XSL. You use XML to describe the data in a sensical manner (using whatever tag names that please you and convey the meaning you want) and you use XSL(T) to transform that data into something renderable. Usually, this means (X)HTML, but it's not limited to that.

As I said, if you want to make a difference in the semantic web, your best bet is to join the W3C and make your opinions heard. It took long enough to simply convince developers to follow a general standard that no new standard is likely to emerge in the near future.

If you wish to do this project for simple curiosity's sake, by all means, feel free to do so. Just don't get your hopes up about changing the world with it. You'd have a better chance of every major company in the world suddenly declaring that they're just going to provide their services for free from now on because they're tired of all the money they rake in.

I hope I'm not sounding too negative, I simply think you'd be better served spending your time on something else and you did ask for opinions:

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[karnedge]

Gadrow is abosolutely correct. That's the whole point of having standards so we, as developers, aren't having to create several different conditionals for one site. Your concepts would be best served through CSS at W3C. Even if you want to create a new rendering language that, let's say, combines markup tagging with styling in one document that makes more sense... I would still apply it through W3C.

[Barrikor]

Then I thought we could create our own designing code, like a new HTML, but with more advanced drawing such as rounded corners and smarter repeating of images.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

The browsers don't even bother supporting the current standards yet, they never support the newer standards right away, the chance of them bothering with a new web ML is quite low...

Nowadays only way you could get a new web language into the mainstream would be to have it work as a plug-in. (IMHO)

I think that creating a new ML that can define "rounded corners and smarter repeating of images" is basically pointless, the W3C has already added both to the standard, but the browsers aren't up to date yet: Rounded corners: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-css3-background-20050216/#the-border-radius , Multiple background images: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#layering, even a whole new language (SVG) for drawing shapes to the screen and also doing things that you'd otherwise need Flash for: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/shapes.html#Introduction

But if even the W3C has a hard time getting the browsers to support their stuff, it's basically impossible for anyone else. The browsers are the factor slowing down innovation, not the W3C.

(I do like the idea of creating a new language plug-in for web gfx though, flash=proprietary svg=verbose silverlight=M$)

[Qwerty]

Well I guess it is kinda a bad idea after all.

But I would still do it just you annoy everyone...

[Barrikor]

Well I guess it is kinda a bad idea after all.

But I would still do it just you annoy everyone...

'

you annoy everyone...

Thanks! I love annoying people

I always take a brake from coding at lunch hour and I troll forums just to annoy people who I don't know and aggravate them over and over again  Taking the sunshine out of people's day makes me smile 

(Just Kidding, sorry - couldn't resist )

This is what you meant right?

But I would still do it just to annoy everyone...

--------------------
You've got me thinking now though... I wonder how hard to it would be to make a new language run on the browser as a 3rd party plug-in? Obviously you'd have a small audience at first, but Flash and Shockwave have demonstrated that the plun-in rout can be an actual way to reach the mainstream... Maybe you could have it embeded in HTML <body> and then have it generate the page in a similar way to HTML, if you could find an effective way for the search engine bots to read the content then it might actually be viable...

Does any one know much about coding 3rd party plug-ins?

[jannesiera]

you annoy everyone...

Thanks! I love annoying people

I always take a brake from coding at lunch hour and I troll forums just to annoy people who I don't know and aggravate them over and over again  Taking the sunshine out of people's day makes me smile 

So I guess that would be a break ?

[Barrikor]

Thanks! I love annoying people

I always take a brake from coding at lunch hour and I troll forums just to annoy people who I don't know and aggravate them over and over again  Taking the sunshine out of people's day makes me smile 

So I guess that would be a break ?

Ooops,  I'll just edit my post before anyone notices and claim it never happened 

[zykal]

Another option would be to push for new standards and tags to be adopted into HTML its happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future. More inout to the dev team the more ideas they ave to work with the better it becomes.