Avatar-avatar interaction

[Topazan]

One of the things that browser based games seem to miss compared to more graphical games is the immersion element, especially where it comes to social situations.  Sure, you can provide message boards, pm boxes, or ajax style chat, but all those things seem to me like ways of interacting with players, not characters.  There just seems to be too much of a gulf between people playing browser games

I wonder if there's a good way to creating the illusion of two or more characters talking or interacting.  Some ideas I've considered:

1.  Using PHP to generate an image of the avatars in a room when the player enters a chat channel-
Not really much better than what we have, but at least it allows players to see what other avatars look like.

2.  Using flash to generate a social environment-
Using flash always seems like cheating, and it would raise expectations in terms of the capabilities of avatars.

3.  Doing what Gaia Online does, and place the avatars next to forum posts.
This works fine for message boards and pms, but not for real time chat.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[133794m3r]

Well personally i don't believe all players should be in the same exact area at all times when they enter a chat channel. Something i've had on my list of todos once i figure out how to do it is, to allow players to see eachother within a city, and if they're in a party show their positions on the big map. And you could make it so that if you had various chat channels, you could make it so that you also have local chat channel and those people would be around eachother. Also i was going to make it so that local players have a few various emoticons that they can use when talking to eachother if they were local. Kind of like a /wave type thing. This way they'd have some interaction but wouldn't be too much imo, as it's not a social networking platform, if you're looking to make it more of a social networking platform with the players then what you said will/would be perfectly acceptable.

[jannesiera]

You should check out http://www.renaissancekingdoms.com/ . It's a role playing game. They have "taverns" where you can enter to chat. A tavern has X seats and when it's full it's full. You can even drink beer and get drunk or play poker in some taverns. I played that game for a short while and really enjoyed that element.

[Chris]

all those things seem to me like ways of interacting with players, not characters

You can not prevent it in a massive game (and I'm not sure if you should). Players interaction is very important in online games, and frequently the bonds created are stronger than those of character interaction. If I were to choose I would choose a feature that would strenghten players interaction since it is the aspect that encourage them to stay in a long run.
You can quit being a character, you can not quit being yourself

[dsheroh]

One of the things that browser based games seem to miss compared to more graphical games is the immersion element, especially where it comes to social situations.  Sure, you can provide message boards, pm boxes, or ajax style chat, but all those things seem to me like ways of interacting with players, not characters.  There just seems to be too much of a gulf between people playing browser games

I'm not sure whether it's a difference of experiences or different interpretation of the same experiences, but I've very, very rarely felt that I'm interacting with a character in any online game, only with players.  The few exceptions have been almost exclusively on MUDs - which are text-based.  Roleplaying simply isn't that common in online games overall and, in my experience, is practically nonexistent in graphically-based games, except perhaps if you're playing on a designated "RP server" (which I've never done, so I can't say how much difference it actually makes).

Given what I've seen on MUDs, I'd say that the primary barrier to in-character interaction in browser games isn't anything to do with graphics, so none of your suggestions (all of which are aimed at creating a more graphical experience) are likely to help with it.  MUDs are, however, completely real-time text-based environments, so I would expect that providing for more real-time interaction would be your best bet for moving things in that direction.  e.g., Rather than AJAX-based chat, maybe you could embed a javascript IRC client which connects to your game's channel as soon as a player logs in so that chat will be instant instead of having to wait for the next AJAX refresh before you see what someone said.

[Topazan]

Let me clarify what I mean.  In some games, if I'm looking for, say a cleric, I can find the cleric.  I can see the cleric.  I can ask him for help, and my character will be talking to the cleric.  Yes, we're both aware that the other is controlled by a player, and neither of us may be roleplaying, but it still feels like a conversation is going on between two people.

In most browser games, your options are private messages or public chat.  Neither of these feels immersive, at least not to me.  Sending someone a private message feels exactly like sending someone a private message or email, not speaking even writing a letter to them.  With either this or chat, all you see is a bunch of names.

I don't know, maybe it's just a matter of what you're used to, but I think there's something missing in the browser games I've played.  I have played MUDs, and in those the interaction seems much better, as long as it's face to face.

133794m3r-  That's a good point.  Part of the problem may be a lack of a sense of space and distance.  In a pre-information age setting it doesn't make much sense that communicating with someone on the other side of the world is no harder or easier than communicating with someone next to you.  Mmorpgs and MUDs often have unlimited range tells and global channels, but at least they also have short range communication so proximity feels like it has some meaning.

jannesiera-  Thanks for the suggestion.  Do they do that with flash or is it just javascript based?

Chris-  All I'm saying is that interaction should feel "real".  You should feel like you're chatting in a game, not about a game.  Maybe that's what my problem is- the communication methods usually used feel so detached from the actual gameplay, it doesn't feel like you're still playing the game when you do it.

dsheroh-  That's a good point as well.  More real-time communication might help somewhat.

Thanks to everyone for your insights, I think this clears up the issue considerably. 

[Chris]

Let me clarify what I mean.  In some games, if I'm looking for, say a cleric, I can find the cleric.  I can see the cleric.  I can ask him for help, and my character will be talking to the cleric.  Yes, we're both aware that the other is controlled by a player, and neither of us may be roleplaying, but it still feels like a conversation is going on between two people.

Most people do not feel this way.

I don't know, maybe it's just a matter of what you're used to, but I think there's something missing in the browser games I've played.  I have played MUDs, and in those the interaction seems much better, as long as it's face to face.

Because it is text based and require telnet. It attacts hardcore, casual are almost non existant. Hardcore like roleplaying, casual don't. It is not a matter of technology, it is a matter of players.

it doesn't feel like you're still playing the game when you do it.

I think it is misconception when we think people go to our websites to play games. It is not always the case, at least some visit for other reasons. I always try to think in terms of providing entertainment, not providing game. The game is merely a tool to provide fun to users


You want to turn browser game into roleplaying experience. But I think you are biting it from the wrong side. First realize that most people do not want or need it, you will be going for niche hardcore players. Then think what hardcore players want, how to attract them and how to discourage casuals because they will destroy the feeling of the game if there is too many of them. Maybe make an oldschoold website with ASCII art on the front page and no gfx at all? Or maybe make it not BBG but PBF, since forum users tend to like roleplaying more? Whichever way you go, be very aware of players, your might be disappointed by their perception of your concept.

[Topazan]

I recognize that you probably have much more practical experience than me, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

First, I'm not talking about roleplaying, I'm talking about immersion.  They may be related, but not necessarily interdependent.

Immersion is important in almost any game.  I see in your signature a link to "Samurai MMORPG".  Why make a game about Samurai and Ninja?  Why not just call it "buttons you can click to change some numbers to other numbers"?  Obviously you thought it was worth having at least a basic story to give the system meaning.  On your front page you promise players can "Go on a journey and meet mythical creatures from Japanese folklore" or "Take a bath every day and eat tasty food in the inn".  Don't you think that the same mindset that leads players to want to "eat tasty food"* in a game might lead them to want to talk to people in a game?



*I'm assuming this is something you do in the game, not a cross promotional thing with some Japanese restaurant's delivery service.   

[AcidicOne]

I'm assuming this is something you do in the game, not a cross promotional thing with some Japanese restaurant's delivery service.

ROFL I read that and almost got myself into trouble at work from laughing so hard.

I think the problem your thinking of and unable quite to explain is the lack of association with the game environment itself. The problem with all games in general is they solely depend on 2 sense's for immersion into the game words, Visual and Audio.(Smell being the strongest of them all and thank god we cant smell some of the hardcore players, lord knows how long they've been sitting there)So for a semi dynamic game because lets face it unless you go 2d or 3d you can only do so much visually. The idea for a "local" chat is always a good idea,also the to each developer what they feel qualify or gives the appropriate feel to there lil game world,a game with the tavern is also another good example, because with that "area" you could always give the page a more visual appearance ie a picture of a tavern layout and you can now click on the activity's in said area that you want to do, or maybe even add some low volume(don't want to give anyone heart attacks now) midi or some kinda of sounds to go with the area. Seeing as it is a personal preference I write everything on paper first,so grab sheet of paper and make a list of what you would expect from the game if it was say a full 3d environment, and then you simply make another list of ways you could bring that list to your game.

Also some smaller things would be maybe a chat icon or identifier  or color that signifies the class etc of the player,giving you the ability to see what the players are around without even asking and without running the risk of user loaded avatars,unless of course you plan on doing a small pool of generic ones for everyone.

Using Chris's ancient japan game as a example(I have't even played it or looked at the link even so dont shoot me) For like a ancient japanese inn i would expect some twangy chord style instrument being played around in the background, maybe older gentlemen playing some sort of domino or board game, maybe some geisha or some um "relaxation therapists" to put it lightly, some random drunk etc
Now visually of course you cold try to recreate some or all of this, but you could use the local chat from earlier and do random sayings from all the occupants in the inn, like the drunk would randomly have a line inserted in the local chat spouting off some nonsense, the old men may be fighting over someone cheating, or talking about lord knows what old guys talk about, the bartender yelling at his "Relaxation therapists" to get back to work whatever I am sure you can see how all of this would add to the game environment feel

[Chris]

I recognize that you probably have much more practical experience than me, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

It's OK to have unpractical, inefficient or even plain wrong attitude/assumptions, as long as you realize it and know the implications and have a plan to counter them.

First, I'm not talking about roleplaying, I'm talking about immersion.  They may be related, but not necessarily interdependent.

I see, so you go for lighter version and if players decide to not talk the "proper way" it won't hurt the game world.

Immersion is important in almost any game.  I see in your signature a link to "Samurai MMORPG".  Why make a game about Samurai and Ninja?  Why not just call it "buttons you can click to change some numbers to other numbers"?  Obviously you thought it was worth having at least a basic story to give the system meaning.  On your front page you promise players can "Go on a journey and meet mythical creatures from Japanese folklore" or "Take a bath every day and eat tasty food in the inn".  Don't you think that the same mindset that leads players to want to "eat tasty food"* in a game might lead them to want to talk to people in a game?

Indeed... when you mentioned it, Samurai appear to have quite high immersion level. Players there even call me admin-san/sama when I pop up On thing to note, this is not a very good game from game owner's perspective, if it was my only game I would have to close it because of finances. I do not konw if it is connected to immersion, but might be...

So, how the immersion was reached in Samurai:
- Theme seems the most important factor, I have another game (fantasy) with very similar setup but the immersion there is very low. People complain about eating food feature, while I never got any complain about the same feature in Samurai, in addition no one ever complained that some options are disabled before you take a bath. I also noticed higher level of immersion in my other Wild West themed game. I would make a hypothesis that fantasy worlds are lost case when it comes to immersion, the best seems settings that are realistic and truly exist/existed on our world.
- There never was any intention of my to make players communicate special way, but they did it on their own (althrough this still is a minority). It was just a possibility for this due to huge amount of shoutbox (3 kinds of inn, bathhouse, training dojo, etc), also NPCs talk specific way and some players followed the convention. Again, simlar thing was done in fantasy game and there players ignored it and went for slaying monster's fest instead.
- There are some non gameplay flavour only features (eating, bathing, some locations)

ancient japanese inn i would expect some twangy chord style instrument being played around in the background, maybe older gentlemen playing some sort of domino or board game, maybe some geisha or some um "relaxation therapists" to put it lightly, some random drunk etc

banji was not really played in inns, the old gentlemen would play go or shogi, also inn is rather too noisy place for playing them, geishas are far too high class to appear in a mere inn and drunks are unlikely (at least drunks in western culture style) since sake is a low percentage beverage and there would be probably lower tolerance to misbehaving clients (at least in cliche inn). But generally your overall spirit of the example is correct

[dsheroh]

- Theme seems the most important factor, I have another game (fantasy) with very similar setup but the immersion there is very low. People complain about eating food feature, while I never got any complain about the same feature in Samurai, in addition no one ever complained that some options are disabled before you take a bath. I also noticed higher level of immersion in my other Wild West themed game. I would make a hypothesis that fantasy worlds are lost case when it comes to immersion, the best seems settings that are realistic and truly exist/existed on our world.

I'm inclined to say that it's more a matter of clear definition than realism.  When you talk about a "shogun" or "wild west" theme, then there's a pretty good chance that I'll picture something in my head which is very similar to what you have in your head.  "Fantasy", OTOH, is much more generic.  Even if we narrow it down to "Tolkein-esque fantasy", it's still likely that you mean the actual Hobbit/LotR books (where we see maybe half a dozen enchanted items total over the four books) and I take it as a reference to D&D (where every innkeeper has a cartload of magic swords and a best friend in the wizards guild).

I suspect that you could get much more immersive results if you nailed your "fantasy" theme down to a specific, well-defined setting.  Instead of "Tolkein-esque fantasy", call it "Middle-Earth" or "Lord of the Rings", although Tolkein's works have been so badly abused by generic "fantasy" that I still wouldn't expect too much.  Referring to other, less-genericized settings would probably work better - "Jordan's Wheel of Time", "Zelazny's Amber", etc. are "fantasy", but also sufficiently well-defined (and not misappropriated as "generic fantasy") that I would expect them to support high immersion, much like "samurai" or "wild west", albeit with a smaller target audience.

And then there's the option of creating an original world with sufficient detail to support high immersion, but that's a tough row to hoe.  Not only do you have to create a complete and vibrant world, you also have to make it interesting enough that players want to learn about it and become a part of it, since you aren't directly borrowing well-known cultural archetypes.

[Topazan]

I'm assuming this is something you do in the game, not a cross promotional thing with some Japanese restaurant's delivery service.

ROFL I read that and almost got myself into trouble at work from laughing so hard.

Heh, you must be easily amused.

It's been done, sort of.

I think the problem your thinking of and unable quite to explain is the lack of association with the game environment itself. The problem with all games in general is they solely depend on 2 sense's for immersion into the game words, Visual and Audio.(Smell being the strongest of them all and thank god we cant smell some of the hardcore players, lord knows how long they've been sitting there)So for a semi dynamic game because lets face it unless you go 2d or 3d you can only do so much visually. The idea for a "local" chat is always a good idea,also the to each developer what they feel qualify or gives the appropriate feel to there lil game world,a game with the tavern is also another good example, because with that "area" you could always give the page a more visual appearance ie a picture of a tavern layout and you can now click on the activity's in said area that you want to do, or maybe even add some low volume(don't want to give anyone heart attacks now) midi or some kinda of sounds to go with the area. Seeing as it is a personal preference I write everything on paper first,so grab sheet of paper and make a list of what you would expect from the game if it was say a full 3d environment, and then you simply make another list of ways you could bring that list to your game.

That's not a bad idea.  Other than what's been covered, some things off the top of my head are:
-The possibility of chance encounters between characters.
-The ability to see what other players are doing.
-Non-verbal forms of expression- body language, dance, music etc.
-Some situations where players work together to help each other in a social situation.

Also some smaller things would be maybe a chat icon or identifier  or color that signifies the class etc of the player,giving you the ability to see what the players are around without even asking and without running the risk of user loaded avatars,unless of course you plan on doing a small pool of generic ones for everyone.

Actually, I had hoped to have a real paper doll system, where you can earn different clothes or accessories in the game, but what you suggest there is probably a much more feasible alternative.

Using Chris's ancient japan game as a example(I have't even played it or looked at the link even so dont shoot me) For like a ancient japanese inn i would expect some twangy chord style instrument being played around in the background, maybe older gentlemen playing some sort of domino or board game, maybe some geisha or some um "relaxation therapists" to put it lightly, some random drunk etc
Now visually of course you cold try to recreate some or all of this, but you could use the local chat from earlier and do random sayings from all the occupants in the inn, like the drunk would randomly have a line inserted in the local chat spouting off some nonsense, the old men may be fighting over someone cheating, or talking about lord knows what old guys talk about, the bartender yelling at his "Relaxation therapists" to get back to work whatever I am sure you can see how all of this would add to the game environment feel

That's a great idea!  I've seen things like that used in MUDs, and it seems to work pretty well, when done right.  It could go a long way towards increasing the ambience.

It's OK to have unpractical, inefficient or even plain wrong attitude/assumptions, as long as you realize it and know the implications and have a plan to counter them.

Seriously, I think you would benefit by looking at things from a different perspective.  If you haven't already, I recommend reading Richard Bartle's Designing Virtual Worlds.  It might open your mind to some aspects of game design you haven't thought about.

I see, so you go for lighter version and if players decide to not talk the "proper way" it won't hurt the game world.

Immersion and role playing are NOT the same thing.  Roleplaying is something players may choose to do, immersion is something the game itself provides. 

Like I said, it is important to most players.  These games aren't chess; people don't play them for the mental exercise alone.  That's why they have stories, settings, and characters.  Heck, even an online chess game could only benefit by making players feel like they're really competing in a chess tournament. 

I don't know exactly what you meant when you said that we provide entertainment rather than games, but I think you're right in at least one sense.  Video games are a type of fiction, like books, movies, and tv shows.  Not everyone who watches a movie is going to start writing fanfiction or dressing as the characters at conventions, but practically all of them expect to be immersed in the story.

Indeed... when you mentioned it, Samurai appear to have quite high immersion level. Players there even call me admin-san/sama when I pop up Cheesy On thing to note, this is not a very good game from game owner's perspective, if it was my only game I would have to close it because of finances. I do not konw if it is connected to immersion, but might be...

So, how the immersion was reached in Samurai:
- Theme seems the most important factor, I have another game (fantasy) with very similar setup but the immersion there is very low. People complain about eating food feature, while I never got any complain about the same feature in Samurai, in addition no one ever complained that some options are disabled before you take a bath. I also noticed higher level of immersion in my other Wild West themed game. I would make a hypothesis that fantasy worlds are lost case when it comes to immersion, the best seems settings that are realistic and truly exist/existed on our world.
- There never was any intention of my to make players communicate special way, but they did it on their own (althrough this still is a minority). It was just a possibility for this due to huge amount of shoutbox (3 kinds of inn, bathhouse, training dojo, etc), also NPCs talk specific way and some players followed the convention. Again, simlar thing was done in fantasy game and there players ignored it and went for slaying monster's fest instead.
- There are some non gameplay flavour only features (eating, bathing, some locations)

I think that dsheroh is correct in his analysis of theme, but I also think that popular historical settings do have a lot of inherent advantages over fictional ones.  It lets players fill in the blanks of the game's exposition with their own knowledge of the period, there are likely to already be several compelling stories in other media based on the same era to get one's imagination running, and since it's real life there are no plotholes to work around, at least not that we can see.