Balancing spells

[Doidel]

Ahoy to all game balancers

This will be a hard nut to crack. It's about integrating a spell into a points system.

Introduction
The fighting system is a 6v6 battlefield, here's a screenshot.
The units are balanced with a points system. The total amount of points includes calculation of health points, absorption and damage.
A level 10 melee unit has about 30 points.

The case
If I add a spell, how much points will it generally "cost"?
And how much considering the difficult case of the following spell: unit a casts spell x, which lasts until unit a's next turn. this spell is targeted at a friendly mage. all incoming damage to the mage is "absorbed" by unit a during the spell's lifetime. "absorbed" means that unit a gets hit, not the mage.

The problem
if unit a has a 60% absorption and high health this is quite a powerful spell. like this you can protect a weak mage with massive attack. However image in PvP when you see an enemy unit casting this spell on unit x. Your reaction would simply be not to attack unit x, wouldn't it?

I'm looking forward to rading your solutions and ideas!

Yours
Doidel

[Doidel]

I got a pm with many questions to the upper case, so here are further details about the spell and it's "environment":

• Spells can miss
• Not letting the enemy see on which friendly unit a spell was cast would be an option
• Spells cannot backfire
• The mentioned spell (i.e. the unit which cast it) would absorb all sorts of damage against the targeted unit
• There won't be any "mana" or alike, however a cooldown on spells can be added

Hope this helps
Best
Doidel

[dsheroh]

I wouldn't rate this spell nearly so highly as it sounds like you do.  Sure, it can be extremely powerful for keeping the mage alive, provided there's an available friendly target to shunt damage to, but a mage who's doing nothing but keeping himself alive is really just dead weight.  He's not doing anything to help the party and, if the enemy has AoE attacks, he's actually making things worse with this spell (since it makes the tank take double damage).

If you go by the standard RPG mage role of providing damage with a side order of crowd control and/or debuffing, then he's not accomplishing any of that when he wastes time on spells that just redirect hits against himself.  In many games, the party's mage is their primary DPS; if your game is one of them, then every second he spends not blasting with all his might is a second that the party's overall combat effectiveness is severely reduced.

When balancing, you have to consider not only the effects of an ability, but also the opportunity cost of using it.  In this case, that opportunity cost is so high - you lose so much by having the mage not inflicting damage - that I doubt this spell would get much use unless the mage is near death and just trying to hold out long enough for a healer to get to him.

[JGadrow]

I agree with dsheroh. Even if you're not going to make the mage a blaster class (maybe it's a utility class) then this spell actually sounds balanced against itself well enough that it shouldn't provide any increase in cost to the unit. Essentially, you're allowing the mage to survive at the cost of another unit.

Now, if the spell simply reduced incoming damage, you could calculate it as:

Code: (php) [Select]

$adjustment = abs ($bonusHealthCost - $opportunityCost)

[Chris]

I agree with everyone, the value of such spell is almost zero (unless very extreme cases like last round of the fight and you are winning and you want to keep your mage alive so you get exp). Mage is to deal damage, mage that spends time to protect himself is useless, you can just hire a barbarian and order him to do nothing, he will be much more efficient
In addition this kind of ability is usually reserved for knights/palladins and is used as a passive skill (20% chance of taking damage instead of the protected unit). Best if combined with counterstrike skill

Play more Japanesse RPG/tactical games, these have such things in aboundance. Also HoM&M has a nice set of unique skills.


As for the question how to make a balanced point system, I would say it is probably impossible to make during design stage. Only after testing and receiving players' feedback...
Or you could make autobalancers (like: mage deals 100 fire damage but any character can buy fire immunity, so if the spell is too powerfull players will nullify it).

[Doidel]

I see what you all mean. However let's have a more precise example:

Mage x has 300 attack, 20 HP left and 20% absorption.
Warrior y has 100 attack, 500 HP left and a 45% absorption.
Step 1) Warrior y casts protection spell on Mage x
Step 2) Enemy unit attacks Mage x for 200 damage
Step 3) Mage x would get 160 damage BUT the spell activates, redirecting the toss towards Warrior y who receives a 110 damage.

Result: Mage x can attack with 300 damage instead of the warrior with 100 attack damage.
In my opinion this is quite a powerful spell ^^ Don't you think so now?

If I'll ever stumble again over a spell I cannot balance I'll return to this thread

Thanks and thanks in advance
Doidel

[Harkins]

Sounds like you should pick a middling point value and then adjust it up or down if it's under- or over-used.

[JGadrow]

Ok, you'd probably be better reworking the spell so that it includes a maximum amount before expiring.

Maybe the spell reads:
Redirects damage from the target to the caster up to a maximum amount of 50% of the caster's base HP.

So, essentially, your warrior:
Gives up half of their health
Gives up the opportunity to deal 100 damage

Your mage gains:
Half of the warrior's health

Furthermore, you should apply the damage first to the mage, and just subtract it from the warrior's HP. That's a further cost of the spell that you preserve the mage at the cost of wearing out your warrior faster.

So, your scenario would be adjusted to look like:

Code: [Select]

m -> 300 ATK, 20 HP, 20% ABS
w -> 100 ATK, 500 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 500 HP, 30% ABS

Round 1
1) w casts 'protect' on m
2) e attacks m!
3) w jumps in the path of e's attack and takes 160 damage!
4) m attacks e!
5) e takes 210 damage from m's attack!

m -> 300 ATK, 20 HP, 20% ABS
w -> 100 ATK, 340 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 290 HP, 30% ABS

Round 2
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks m!
4) w jumps in the path of e's attack and takes 90 damage!
5) m takes 70 damage from e's attack!
6) m has died!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 250 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 220 HP, 30% ABS

Round 3
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 140 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 150 HP, 30% ABS

Round 4
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 30 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 80 HP, 30% ABS

Round 5
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!
5) w has died!

m -> dead
w -> dead
e -> 200 ATK, 10 HP, 30% ABS

e has won!
Compare that to without the spell:

Code: [Select]

m -> 300 ATK, 20 HP, 20% ABS
w -> 100 ATK, 500 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 500 HP, 30% ABS

Round 1
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks m!
4) m takes 160 damage from e's attack!
5) m has died!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 500 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 430 HP, 30% ABS

Round 2
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 390 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 360 HP, 30% ABS

Round 3
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 280 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 290 HP, 30% ABS

Round 4
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 170 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 220 HP, 30% ABS

Round 5
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!

m -> dead
w -> 100 ATK, 60 HP, 45% ABS
e -> 200 ATK, 150 HP, 30% ABS

Round 6
1) w attacks e!
2) e takes 70 damage from w's attack!
3) e attacks w!
4) w takes 110 damage from e's attack!
5) w has died!

m -> dead
w -> dead
e -> 200 ATK, 80 HP, 30% ABS
As you can see, this actually increased the damage that the enemy was able to potentially inflict upon the player. The end result was still a loss for m and w and the spell proved only to have a minimal effect on the outcome.

This is why I believe the spell can balance itself.

[Doidel]

Wow oO surprising...
Thanks for the explanation! +rep (if I could)
I am convinced ^^

Have a nice evening
Doidel