Crafting

[Chris]

Post here what you know about crafting, how it works, various crafting systems used in games, popular ones, unique ones, evaluation which ones are best/you like the most etc.

Crafting - a player collects components, learn crafting skill and/or obtain recipe, attempt to create an item or other commodity.

The crafting models (by item randomness):
- fixed - player gets a recipe and can create an exact predefined item
- fixed with quality - as above but the item quality vary depending on crafter's skill
- from fixed parts - compose several different types of parts (also possibly of different quality) and a new item emerge inheriting attributes from used components
- wild - a completely random item (regardless of components used) appear (rather used in simple games only).
- truly free - I don't know if it exists, but for the sake of completness of the theory; creation of completely new type of item (atomic level components or something )

[JGadrow]

There's no reason you couldn't mix crafting systems in your game. To give some examples with a fantasy flavored world, Blacksmiths would probably have a set of predefined recipes that they produce a known item. Maybe alchemists would have some pre-defined recipes, some of your "from fixed parts" recipes, and some wild recipes.

I don't think a "truly free" system would work. Unless, of course, that system was the core mechanic of the game because there would very likely be so many permutations to consider that it would be an unwieldy system.

[Chris]

I was hoping someone would post about some cool crafting system in some game that he really liked and enjoyed. Honestly, as a player I do not understand this whole crafting (I understand part of its purpose as a designer), where is the fun? Do people really enjoy putting some minerals together to have some lame sword pop up?

Is there anyone here who enjoys crafting? And is willing to explain what is so fun in it for him?

[Glenugie]

I was hoping someone would post about some cool crafting system in some game that he really liked and enjoyed. Honestly, as a player I do not understand this whole crafting (I understand part of its purpose as a designer), where is the fun? Do people really enjoy putting some minerals together to have some lame sword pop up?

Is there anyone here who enjoys crafting? And is willing to explain what is so fun in it for him?

I really liked the crafting system in Kingdom of Loathing (I use a similar crafting system for Ennui). Basically I think people liked it because they regularly introduced new "Recipes" and players liked finding new things. It was quite a simple system everyoone can create any recipe, aside from a few unique recipes that you had to unlock, by combining any two craftable items (For example, you can create a Goat by combining Anticheese and Goat Cheese). But I know in the past you've referenced KoL Chris (I believe), so I'm going to assume you were already aware of it's crafting system. I'll admit I didn't spend much time crafting, so I wouldn't say I found it a particular attraction, but I know a lot of people who would. Anyway, just my opinion.

[JGadrow]

I agree with Glenugie. I think the "fun" of crafting comes from the collection of the recipes. Some people just like to collect things. Diablo III just recently announced a crafting system that I think sounded interesting.

And I think the actual "effect" of crafting systems is to help ease the whole random factor of finding loot. Sometimes, you're just really unlucky, and you're better off just making a slightly less-quality item yourself and hoping you see something better in the future.

[lindhsky]

The crafting-system I loved the most was back in the days when I played Dark Age Of Camelot - the MMORPG. I have to be honest though I don't remember if they had recipes or they just had so everyone could craft anything.

But I took some ideas from that system and put it into my game and it was the quality factor of a crafted item. The higher quality the more slots to put ingredients/spellcomponents on the item. I have also added so that the quality adds stats to the item. For an example an item of 90+ quality might have 3 to 4 slots to put ingredients on (which you get from doing different things in the game) but it might also add other stats to the item. I have no recipes instead all can do the different sets of armor and weapons only they are named after the clan when you create them (ex: Stormcrows Great Hood). So even with 1 in armor crafting you can do a sword only it will have low quality. I will add recipes though that the players should be able to find during their adventures so that they can craft rare items.

I love to craft in my own game and so do my friends that also play it but it's far from perfect. I need to look over so that people with very low skill in crafting can get something out of it as well. But getting ingredients is exciting and to watch how good an item is after you crafted it is also exciting. I do not base quality just on the crafting skill instead I roll a number of tests to see how high quality an item gets. For an example a player with 200 in crafting might begin every item at quality 70 and then they have a 100% chance of each roll up to 75 and then a 90% chance for each roll from 76 to 80 and so on. I roll for every percent with the success chance decreasing for every percent and if you fail it stops there. You still create the item and it gets the quality where the test-roll stopped at.

The question if I enjoy crafting in games then I have to say yes. But it all depends on what things you can craft. I mean in some games you can only craft bad stuff that you easily can find better in a dungeon somewhere and in those games I prefer not to craft. In a perfect game for me a high ranked crafter should be able to make gear that everyone wants. And for the money he gets from selling his crafted items he should be able to hire other players to collect ingredients for him. That is what I liked about DAOC because people hired the best crafters because they wanted gear with many slots so that a spellcrafter could make them uber! But it should be hard to become such a good crafter or all will be one.

[Chris]

But I know in the past you've referenced KoL Chris (I believe), so I'm going to assume you were already aware of it's crafting system.

Yes... I must have played some crafting games before, but after a while my mind goes completely blank about the crafting issue and I completely forget the system even existed! This simply does not want to stick with my memory From KoL I faintly remember that they ordered me to glue some stuff together in order to pass obligatory quest, I never checked the crafting system again.

The only crafting system I played and liked was Diablo2, I was putting 3 exact diamonds, clicked and puff, only one but of better quality emerged (I never used other feature of crafting system there). Maybe it's because I never knew what I should put to get what effect?
Another nice one (which I remembered, so it means I must have like it ) was A-something (forgotten the game name, the mix of steampunk and elvish magic, made by people who made Fallout). Never played the game but I read about the crafting system and I liked it. There were several branches (electricity, mechanical, etc) and each of these could be trained to a certain level. Once learned it allowed you creation of a unique item (not obtainable in the game, I think). The nice thing was that you knew from the start what you would be able to make if you went that route.

When you play crafting game, how do you know what ingredients to use (I never know)? And how do you evaluate if the new item will be better than those you already have?

[Sagefire135]

Crafting is really really cool but, if you are crafting a new item from a bunch of worthless stuff you are generally not going to get a worthwhile item, so its not much fun. to get a worthwhile item you have to use better ingredients, which is fun IF IT WORKS...if you end up losing your stuff and get nothing back then its not fun at all. if an item does get crafted, now the recipe is known and people will start to craft that item all the time. but is using a known recipe to make a specific item crafting? i would argue that it is no different than a specific item dropping from a npc.

everyone is going to want these crafted items, but nobody is going to want to spend their time and effort and resources to actually discover these crafted items. Using Diablo 2 runewords as an example, the only reason all the formulas were known is because people dupe everything and have a limitless supply to play with. in a game without a limitless supply...NOBODY is going to throw high level ingredients into items just to 'see what happens'. actual crafting using the cube is safe because it doesnt work unless you use a correct formula, but again who is going to go out of their way to test everything when they are unsure of the results?

I see no way around that...

[jannesiera]

Just per illustration I can explain how crafting works in DriftCity (mmo racing game in open world) since I've been playing that game recently.

Your car has 4 types of slots and 2 slots of each type (2 speed slots, 2 booster slots, 2 acceleration slots, 2 durability slots) -> that is 8 slots in total. Each slots has a sort of "mini-slot" to it. So 8 basic slots and 8 mini-slots.

You have 3 different kinds of parts. All parts improved stats of your car and / or gave some additional bonus. A slot has to have one "basic" part, then you could add an additional "docking" part on top of the basic part and / or an "option" part in the mini-slot.

Now, crafting is different for different parts. For basic parts there were 3 types: normal (lower level), super (mid-level) and hyper (high-level) and a level. Your car has a level as well (from 1 to 9) and to equip a certain part your car has to be above the level of the part. So you could not equip a level 3 normal part on a level 2 car. There were level 4 normal parts and level 4 super parts, but you could not find normal parts above level 4 or super parts bellow level 4.

As for docking parts, there were no level specifications, only "normal", "super" or "hyper". You could only dock it on a basic part of the same type, no matter it's level. The same goes for option parts.

Now, the actual crafting. You could get basic parts from playing the game and from the auction.

You could enhance a basic part by buying an enhancer (Normal enhancers are relatively cheap on the auction while super and hyper enhancers were more costly). Enhancing a part needed the right enhancer type (which is being consumed while enhancing) but level doesn't matter here, only when equipping to your car. Enhancing made your stats better (you could see this before enhancing) but doesn't change the type (normal stays normal) or level of your part. Enhancing costs an enhancer and additional money (in-game money ofc) to the game. Enhancing could be successful, failing or broken. When successful you get your part back with a "+1" in it's name (or later +2, +3, ... ). When failing you get your part back with no improved stats. When broken you get your part back broken (and thus not usable). A part can be fixed but all enhancing is lost (and fixing costs money as well). Parts usually only get broken when taking enhancing to far -- different level parts have different limits but the point where it actually breaks is still quite random.

So you can not really "craft" basic parts, only enhance them. For docking parts it's different. You can get docking parts by combining 3 basic parts of the same type (level doesn't matter, though putting high-level parts together may provide a better docking part, not 100% sure though). Docking parts cannot be enhanced. The stats of a docking part are also quite random, so the more you try the better chance you get a really good docking part.

For option parts, they cannot be crafted and are harder to get to get in the game than basic parts, though you can always find them in the auction and are cheap. You can enhance an option part by buying the right substance (normal, super or hyper) and paying additional money to enhance the item. The result is totally random, your option part cannot be broken, enhancing just changes it's stats completely. So you can go from a +5 part to a +40 part, or from a +15 part to a +10 part or just from a +20 part to a +20 (so actually just losing money since the part didn't change). It's not that a part can have +1, +2, +3, ... stats though. There are a few stats specified (different for different parts) like +5, +15, +22, +31, +40 e.g. A part keeps it's type (normal, super or hyper).

Hope that kind of explains it -- this might help getting the picture: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Drift_City/Speed_Parts .

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Personally I found crafting rather fun but it had it's limits. The fact that a part had a level added more complexity to the game that wasn't necessarily bad but the fact that you couldn't upgrade our current car but had to buy a completely new car was very frustrating. Just because you want a certain car to keep because of the way it looks or whatever. To be clear, you could upgrade your car but only if you pay real money. What was a good way to earn money for it's developers, it does feel very limiting and causes some frustration.

The fact that you could upgrade low-level normal parts to be really good was cool so you could still be driving your low-level car. It costs a lot of money and tries to get a really good part since I broke sooo much. In the end it is much cheaper to go to the auction (player market) and buy some good enhanced parts there.

The same goes for docking parts. Just go to the auction to get them, better of selling your 3 parts need for crafting since a docking part is lesser in market value (and also when selling to the NPC).

I found it kind of counter-intuitive that by enhancing option parts I would get really good parts for a very cheap price if I were a little bit lucky. That is quite pleasing.

[Topazan]

I've always been fascinated by crafting, but I never really found a system I like.  I guess it came from playing single player rpgs.  I always wondered what it would be like to play the other side, the quest giving NPCs that offered

I think crafting should go one of two directions:
1.  Highly detailed designing and customization based crafting.  Crafters can compete to make the best items from the available resources, with the best crafters becoming famous for their skill.  This can be pretty hard to implement.
2.  Crafting based on management and logistics.  The crafting minigame should be like one of those tycoon games, where proper management of supply and demand and operating efficiency provide the challenge. 

One game that did the first pretty well was Star Wars Galaxies.  Resources spawned in cycles, with each cycle bringing a new crop of resources with randomly generated stats.  Players would select the resources, and then "experiment" on the item to add some additional bonuses based on their skills.  Because the process was fairly complicated, a lot of players learned which crafters on their server they could trust rather than try to figure it out.  Crafters with a good "brand" could charge much higher than their competition.

For the second one, I don't know if I've seen a really in depth version, but the browser game simunomics had a pretty solid system.  Players built factories which took some items as input and then outputted other items after a period of time.  Players could improve the value of their product through good materials, research, or improving their brand name.

Ultimately, what I've found is that I like selling more than crafting.  Besides crafting, a service profession can be fun to play as well.

[Chris]

I got why I thought crafting was fishy. It's because it careters to 3DMMORPG. It works only with unrestricted exchange of goods between players, which is more or less a suicide model for competitive round based BBGs. Also it works only if crafting take time, real time.

It there a point of crafting system if you can not sell/give things you crafted to other players?

[JGadrow]

It there a point of crafting system if you can not sell/give things you crafted to other players?

Allowing players to carry and/or make use of more items (if you limit them in some fashion like the Diablo series does) is one reason. Another one that I can think of is it allows for a player to acquire moderately powerful items (not super-powerful ones) even if they happen to have bad luck with a RNG loot distribution system.

But, seriously, check out Diablo 3's crafting system. I think you, being a Diablo 2 player, will be interested to get their take on it.

[Topazan]

I got why I thought crafting was fishy. It's because it careters to 3DMMORPG. It works only with unrestricted exchange of goods between players, which is more or less a suicide model for competitive round based BBGs. Also it works only if crafting take time, real time.

It there a point of crafting system if you can not sell/give things you crafted to other players?

Well, that does remove what I believe is the main reason that people like crafting. 

If you have a good customization system, there might still be some fun there, especially if you can show it off to other people.  One MUD I played had tailors you could go to and order special clothes, choosing from a long list of patterns, styles, adornments, colors, and materials, including some exotic ones like dragon skin or <player class> bone buttons.  It was kind of fun to try to describe the most expensive article you could think of and seeing how much it would cost, or trying to design a costume along a certain theme.

Also, if you can sell your products to the system, and the crafting process isn't very labor-intensive, it can be a good break in between pursuing the game's main goals.  It can be something as simple as "insert gold for materials into the crafting device, come back a few hours later and receive gold for the finished product", as some facebook games are fond of. 

[dragagon]

I'm a long term crafter. In fact I have played some MMOs only because of their crafting. Here are some of the key points I look for in a crafting system:

It puts my character name on the item when i craft it.
Items aren't all 1 set of stats.
Quality of materials determines what the quality of the final product is.
You can specialize in a specific thing and be better than someone who picked a different craft.
You don't have to level your "fighting" in order to craft better items.
I also like games where crafting isn't a guarantee.

The lure of crafting is a big social aspect for people. Many players find it boring because it feels like you aren't accomplishing much. Crafters feel the exact opposite. A crafter is generally the type of person you would see being a merchant in real life. They would rather talk and barter and sell things than rush off to hack some critter.

Many players are crafters because thats how they earn their money or because they want "User Item X" and the only way to get it is to craft. Games like Lord of the Rings Online, Saga of Ryzom, and Dark Age of Camelot I felt had a good system because only people that stuck with crafting, made it as far as they could. You didn't have everyone doing crafting because it was just too time consuming to advance far enough.

Personally I dislike games that force me to level my character to access new crafting. I don't want to have to level my alt to 70 just to make all the items in the game. I think its wasteful. At the same time I dislike forcing players to play multiple characters in order to craft everything in the game. I realize its unrealistic, but the game mechanics allow me to make enough characters then force me to level them so that i can craft everything. So essentially the developers are saying "We will give you a way to craft everything, but its going to take so long it'll drive you insane."

Anyway, that is just my rant on this topic.

[Chris]

I'm a long term crafter. In fact I have played some MMOs only because of their crafting.

Would you still like crafting if you couldn't sell/give things you crafted to other players?

[dragagon]

No, most of the fun in crafting is in bartering and selling to others. I would still do it but only if the items from crafting are as good or better than things gained from questing or hunting.