Loseless combat / competition system

[Harkins]

Fleeting Fantasy but I don't like the idea of players getting preyed on. So I suggested recording that a raid happened while the player was (or even bother players were) offline.

Why do you want raiders in the first place then?

Because it's fun to raid and, as a trader, to have the element of some danger. But I don't want baby-eating.

[CygnusX]

Baby eating is certainly not desired.

In many successful RPG's, the amount of gold you earn is proportional to the level of the enemy.  If you design your economy such that a high level player will have 10,000 x the income of a lower level player, and couple this with a gains system that is proportional to the enemy, then this would head off many problems.  The higher level player would have very few incentives to waste his turns/time on such measly gains.

[JGadrow]

The higher level player would have very few incentives to waste his turns/time on such measly gains.

People don't need any incentive to be ass-hats. Take a look at WoW... you actually receive zero benefit from killing people so many levels below your own. But... if you can kill them in 1 shot, you didn't really lose anything and, I guess, it makes them feel better about their relative size in a certain region of their bodies because they still do it.

[CygnusX]

True.  But WoW is a game where people hang out just to be a-hats.  I have not seen this very often, if ever, in the bbg genre (which I think we're still talking about).  The guys at the top are too worried about holding their position, and ever turn/action counts.

[Chris]

Fleeting Fantasy but I don't like the idea of players getting preyed on. So I suggested recording that a raid happened while the player was (or even bother players were) offline.

Why do you want raiders in the first place then?

Because it's fun to raid and, as a trader, to have the element of some danger. But I don't want baby-eating.

But you said it was supposed to be a trading game? If trading is not much more fun than raids then maybe just make a game solely about bandits? I mean, if you make a trading game and you need combat to make it fun... then you are doing something wrong. People play trading games because they enjoy commerce, exchange, barter... not because they like raiding and pillage If they like raiding they play raiding games

"as a trader, to have the element of some danger" this can be solved different way, without making players play the role of a bandit. It is an ideal role for PvE or NPC mercenaries.

People don't need any incentive to be ass-hats.

I hate to agree with JGadrow on anything, but this time I have to

[Harkins]

Because it's fun to raid and, as a trader, to have the element of some danger. But I don't want baby-eating.

But you said it was supposed to be a trading game? If trading is not much more fun than raids then maybe just make a game solely about bandits? I mean, if you make a trading game and you need combat to make it fun... then you are doing something wrong. People play trading games because they enjoy commerce, exchange, barter... not because they like raiding and pillage If they like raiding they play raiding games

I know, and I very well may leave it out. It was a daydream feature on a daydream project.

[JGadrow]

True.  But WoW is a game where people hang out just to be a-hats.  I have not seen this very often, if ever, in the bbg genre (which I think we're still talking about).  The guys at the top are too worried about holding their position, and ever turn/action counts.

The line between bbg and more "traditional" games is fading. Especially when HTML5 becomes really viable. I've played through some bbg HTML5 demos that felt like I was playing computer games circa early 1990s.

20 years from now, the leading game developers will be making games that are playable in your browsers... I'm almost confident of that!

Anyways, if there's a specific limit on turns (which is a bbg-only concept... one I loathe because it shouldn't be your job to tell me how much I can play) then you have introduced a cost for killing that low-ranking player. Unless, of course, the player doesn't have enough actions to spend those turns on... in which case, why not spend that turn to 1-shot the lowbie next-door? Sure I'll only get $2 for the attack... but I wasn't doing anything with that turn anyways and that's $2 more than I would have had.

I realize that bbg and traditional games are different markets but they're still games and good design is good design irrespective of platform!

Edit: Furthermore, I tend to reference traditional games because it's more likely that other people have played those games which creates a common vernacular that's understood by a larger audience. Doesn't mean I expect your game to rival WoW or anything like that... you don't have a multi-million dollar budget after-all.

[Chris]

Anyways, if there's a specific limit on turns (which is a bbg-only concept... one I loathe because it shouldn't be your job to tell me how much I can play)

But is there any, even theorethical, solution to this? Assuming we keep it a game (a thing you compete with others and win at some point), not a virtual world.

I realize that bbg and traditional games are different markets but they're still games and good design is good design irrespective of platform!

For designer, yes, there are not many changes. But players of BBG and players of other games seem to be completely different race. I concluded it from trying to advertise on some gaming sites that are not related to BBGs. It's as if those who don't play BBG already are impossible to "convert" no matter what you do.

[JGadrow]

But is there any, even theorethical, solution to this? Assuming we keep it a game (a thing you compete with others and win at some point), not a virtual world.

Ugh! I can't wait to get more free time and get even to a playable alpha! Seriously, the answer is so astonishingly simple you're going to go, "That's stupid! It'll never work! Hmm... on second thought..." lol How do I know? I've already gone through that process.

For designer, yes, there are not many changes. But players of BBG and players of other games seem to be completely different race. I concluded it from trying to advertise on some gaming sites that are not related to BBGs. It's as if those who don't play BBG already are impossible to "convert" no matter what you do.

I think that's a matter of target audience. People playing standard games are used to being able to sink as much time as they want into a game. You're trying to take those players and force them to only play a few minutes a day. So, of course they're going to balk. In addition, your sites aren't exactly graphically outstanding so your games, specifically, are not tailored to draw a crowd already used to having pretty eye-candy.

I don't think it's a matter of players are unwilling to play BBGs... it's a matter of how you go after your target demographic. But, hey, you're making a living from your games so more power to ya! Not trying to belittle you, just point out that "your mileage may vary" just like you can't say, "People won't buy shoes!" if you're the company making the $10 pair at Wal-Mart that might be true... but Nike would have a very different opinion.

[Chris]

For designer, yes, there are not many changes. But players of BBG and players of other games seem to be completely different race. I concluded it from trying to advertise on some gaming sites that are not related to BBGs. It's as if those who don't play BBG already are impossible to "convert" no matter what you do.

I think that's a matter of target audience. People playing standard games are used to being able to sink as much time as they want into a game. You're trying to take those players and force them to only play a few minutes a day. So, of course they're going to balk. In addition, your sites aren't exactly graphically outstanding so your games, specifically, are not tailored to draw a crowd already used to having pretty eye-candy.

I don't think it's a matter of players are unwilling to play BBGs... it's a matter of how you go after your target demographic. But, hey, you're making a living from your games so more power to ya! Not trying to belittle you, just point out that "your mileage may vary" just like you can't say, "People won't buy shoes!" if you're the company making the $10 pair at Wal-Mart that might be true... but Nike would have a very different opinion.

No, it is only about people who are willing to register. The game style is irrelevant at that point. It is not gfx either, actually this was retro site so they are supposed to love the style of layout I make Some kind of gamers just loathe BBGs.

[CygnusX]

I am with JG in that a graphics overhaul to some of your games could double if not triple your user base.  Not that I have much room to talk...