NPC customer formula

[Chris]

if you reduce price by 50% of average price of other players you get 3 times more customers

Is that an example or is that the one and only pricing rule?  If the latter, why not just charge 1billion gp for everything?  In either case, what would you say guides the players in their pricing decisions?

No, I meant to show the overall curve shape, it would be a function.  Like x^2 or something.

But I'm not clear how the market will determine the price.

Everyone set a price they wish. All of prices * quantity offered are summed up and average is brought up (also some arbitrary number (like 5 times last iteration price) to act as max price, everything above is not counted to avoid heavy price manipulation).

Couldn't you control the price by making a lot of dummy accounts to bring the average up or down?

Welcome to the nasty realm of muliplayer games Yep, they could affect it. But not control. Also the price affect everyone so such manipulation is not so bad.

1.  As I said, players will not have unlimited production capability.  A single player can't monopolize the entire market because they just won't have enough products.

That's communism economic model. With capitalism model you assume unlimited production and shortage of money. I strongly recommend capitalism model.

A single player selling their good cheaply will increase the price of other goods the NPCs need.

Why? I don't get it.

3.  The chance to make a profit in the player-player market still exists.  That megastore will still need materials to produce its products.

Oh, I see. You mean full economy game, not addition of shops to RPG game. Why not discarding NPC customers and allow only player to player with players having internal needs for their population?

[Topazan]

if you reduce price by 50% of average price of other players you get 3 times more customers

Is that an example or is that the one and only pricing rule?  If the latter, why not just charge 1billion gp for everything?  In either case, what would you say guides the players in their pricing decisions?

No, I meant to show the overall curve shape, it would be a function.  Like x^2 or something.

But I'm not clear how the market will determine the price.

Everyone set a price they wish. All of prices * quantity offered are summed up and average is brought up (also some arbitrary number (like 5 times last iteration price) to act as max price, everything above is not counted to avoid heavy price manipulation).

Couldn't you control the price by making a lot of dummy accounts to bring the average up or down?

Welcome to the nasty realm of muliplayer games Yep, they could affect it. But not control. Also the price affect everyone so such manipulation is not so bad.

It just feels a bit too arbitrary.  It might work in a large game, but in a small game the temptation towards price fixing would be too high.  Even if there's a cap, the players can slowly work to increase it.  It might cause a lot of frustration and anger towards players who don't cooperate with the collusion.  

1.  As I said, players will not have unlimited production capability.  A single player can't monopolize the entire market because they just won't have enough products.

That's communism economic model. With capitalism model you assume unlimited production and shortage of money. I strongly recommend capitalism model.

Capitalism or communism, building factories and training workers takes time.  The market will adjust in that time.  They might monopolize a single item this way, but if every item is sold at a cheap enough price the population will increase and so will the demand

Besides, is restricting production really that different from restricting market share per player?

A single player selling their good cheaply will increase the price of other goods the NPCs need.

Why? I don't get it.

See the revision at the top of my last post.  If guns are being sold cheaply, the NPCs have more money left to buy butter.  If everything is being sold cheaply, the population and demand increases.

3.  The chance to make a profit in the player-player market still exists.  That megastore will still need materials to produce its products.

Oh, I see. You mean full economy game, not addition of shops to RPG game. Why not discarding NPC customers and allow only player to player with players having internal needs for their population?

Well, the purpose of the NPC market is to:
1.  Get the economy started at the beginning of the game.
2.  Insert money into the economy.
3.  Create a demand for goods that have no player use, to create a more diverse market.

So, yes, you're right, internal markets would work for this, if you could find a way to generate fair prices that don't cause excessive inflation or deflation.

[Chris]

Which economy games you played so far?

[Topazan]

Simunomics and miniconomy were the big ones.  I tried kapilands, and played the market extensively in Neopets and a little bit in some 3d mmorpgs.

What exactly is it you don't think I understand about these games?  I haven't really played the games you mentioned so far, so I don't know what was unique about them, but I've played too many single player business sim type games to list, and I'm not sure what insight about dynamic multiplayer economies there is to be gained from there.

[Chris]

I haven't played any of these. How about single player? There should be one game we both played, I hope

What exactly is it you don't think I understand about these games?

Everything. It feels to me as if we speak about completely different genres. For example where have you seen goods basket mechanic (If guns are being sold cheaply, the NPCs have more money left to buy butter)? I can't recall playing anything like that even once...

is restricting production really that different from restricting market share per player?

Restriction is always by money (investments). I never, ever seen any game that restricted output and earnings by something else (althrough it is doable, just never saw it so I wonder where you got that idea from).

if you could find a way to generate fair prices that don't cause excessive inflation or deflation.

I don't understand this. Prices are decided by demand and supply. And that's it, there are no "other options" really... There is no place for inflation or deflation. These terms are irrelevant.

I'm not sure what insight about dynamic multiplayer economies there is to be gained from there.

Capitalism I & II can be directly copied to multiplayer...

[Topazan]

I haven't played any of these. How about single player? There should be one game we both played, I hope

I could list some, but I'm not really sure what you're looking for.  Most games I've played with an element of selling had fixed prices and unlimited purchases.

What exactly is it you don't think I understand about these games?

Everything. It feels to me as if we speak about completely different genres. For example where have you seen goods basket mechanic (If guns are being sold cheaply, the NPCs have more money left to buy butter)? I can't recall playing anything like that even once...

Well, for one thing, I've seen it in player behavior in various games.

Where did you see the complicated relationship between land/farmers/food in this thread?

My intent is not to replicate another game, it's to create a system that fulfills a purpose.

is restricting production really that different from restricting market share per player?

Restriction is always by money (investments). I never, ever seen any game that restricted output and earnings by something else (althrough it is doable, just never saw it so I wonder where you got that idea from).

Well, most RPGs for one, single or multiplayer.  In that case, production is limited by the time spent killing and recovering, and the luck of the loot table.

How about the Harvest Moon games?  Production is limited by finite time and energy per day and the size of the farm.

How about warcraft style RTSs?  Production is limited by available resource nodes.

Crafting in 3d mmos?  One player can only click the button so many times in a period of time.

Really, it seems to me that games that allow unlimited production are the exception.

if you could find a way to generate fair prices that don't cause excessive inflation or deflation.

I don't understand this. Prices are decided by demand and supply. And that's it, there are no "other options" really... There is no place for inflation or deflation. These terms are irrelevant.

If I understand your system correctly, demand is constant and the price does not react to supply.  It seems to me that price is instead controlled by the psychology of the playerbase.  It's in the interest of the group to charge a high price and in the interest of the individual to charge below the group.  Depending on the choices they make, there could be a high price in time of plentiful supply or a low price in time of scarcity.

What do you mean "no place for inflation or deflation"?  They're legitimate concerns in any game with a player economy.  Injecting money or items too quickly causes problems.  It's something that 3d mmorpgs have frequently failed at in the past.

Since you brought it up, where did you see this system?

I'm not sure what insight about dynamic multiplayer economies there is to be gained from there.

Capitalism I & II can be directly copied to multiplayer...

Maybe I'll so some research on it, or try to run it on a virtual machine.

[Chris]

Where did you see the complicated relationship between land/farmers/food in this thread?

Nowhere. This is rather original concept. I also dropped it because it was too original and too confusing to players.

My intent is not to replicate another game, it's to create a system that fulfills a purpose.

What if currently existing games fullfill the purpose better than your newly invented system?

How about the Harvest Moon games?  Production is limited by finite time and energy per day and the size of the farm.

It is not business simulation game but more like RPG/adventure with low economy features.

How about warcraft style RTSs?  Production is limited by available resource nodes.

RTSs defintely are not business simulation games.

Crafting in 3d mmos?  One player can only click the button so many times in a period of time.

3DMMORPGs are not business simulation games, althrough they might have some shared parts.

OK, I get it now, we were indeed talking about different genres. What I meant was a game where you are a CEO of a company. Build factories, sell goods. In short games where you use money to make more money. You meant RPG games with some economy feature, right?

if you could find a way to generate fair prices that don't cause excessive inflation or deflation.

I don't understand this. Prices are decided by demand and supply. And that's it, there are no "other options" really... There is no place for inflation or deflation. These terms are irrelevant.

If I understand your system correctly, demand is constant and the price does not react to supply.  It seems to me that price is instead controlled by the psychology of the playerbase.  It's in the interest of the group to charge a high price and in the interest of the individual to charge below the group.  Depending on the choices they make, there could be a high price in time of plentiful supply or a low price in time of scarcity.

What do you mean "no place for inflation or deflation"?  They're legitimate concerns in any game with a player economy.  Injecting money or items too quickly causes problems.  It's something that 3d mmorpgs have frequently failed at in the past.

Since you brought it up, where did you see this system?

Well, I saw it in business simulation games. Inflation exists only in poorly designed RPGs (And I can not understand why they never fixed it, it is so simple, just make a progressive geomethrical cost for +1 to selected stat purchase option...) there is no place for this in properly designed (by which I mean average design not any genious invention) economy games.

I think you should try "real" business simulation games, even if you don't plan to make one. This will make you understand how the system works in real world and how to simulate it on computer. Capitalism or Industry Tycoon seem the best for this. Or you could grab the old Oil Barons (http://www.squakenet.com/computer_games/1780/Oil-Barons/download.html). Checking Detroit or Motor City (AKA Old Timer) would be good too since they made a lot of shortcuts and cheating while still preserving the overall realistic feel of the system. Pizza Tycoon is best for understanding arbitrary creation of customers groups.

[Barrikor]

Shouldn't a game always has a small bit of inflation?

Later in the game players expect to have more money than when they started.

[Topazan]

My intent is not to replicate another game, it's to create a system that fulfills a purpose.

What if currently existing games fullfill the purpose better than your newly invented system?

Then I'll use them, if someone can convince me that they do.

OK, I get it now, we were indeed talking about different genres. What I meant was a game where you are a CEO of a company. Build factories, sell goods. In short games where you use money to make more money. You meant RPG games with some economy feature, right?

I don't know, I wasn't really thinking in terms of "genre".  I was just thinking of a game where players can exchange items and money.  Call it an RPG if you want, or a strategy game, or a simulation.  In any case, I see no reason to let oneself be restricted from useful design choices because of conventions.

if you could find a way to generate fair prices that don't cause excessive inflation or deflation.

I don't understand this. Prices are decided by demand and supply. And that's it, there are no "other options" really... There is no place for inflation or deflation. These terms are irrelevant.

If I understand your system correctly, demand is constant and the price does not react to supply.  It seems to me that price is instead controlled by the psychology of the playerbase.  It's in the interest of the group to charge a high price and in the interest of the individual to charge below the group.  Depending on the choices they make, there could be a high price in time of plentiful supply or a low price in time of scarcity.

What do you mean "no place for inflation or deflation"?  They're legitimate concerns in any game with a player economy.  Injecting money or items too quickly causes problems.  It's something that 3d mmorpgs have frequently failed at in the past.

Since you brought it up, where did you see this system?

Well, I saw it in business simulation games. Inflation exists only in poorly designed RPGs (And I can not understand why they never fixed it, it is so simple, just make a progressive geomethrical cost for +1 to selected stat purchase option...) there is no place for this in properly designed (by which I mean average design not any genious invention) economy games.

Single player or multiplayer business games?  Where did you see a game where the community collectively names its sale price?

That seems like a crude solution to inflation.  It may work in RPGs, since they generally have buckets of gold being poured all the time with very little to spend it on, so something like that would help.  However, deflation can be  a problem too.  I would think the ideal solution would control the inflow and outflow of currency so it remains proportional to the value of things available to purchase.

I still don't understand how there could not be a "place" for this in any game that involves exchanges between players.

I think you should try "real" business simulation games, even if you don't plan to make one. This will make you understand how the system works in real world and how to simulate it on computer. Capitalism or Industry Tycoon seem the best for this. Or you could grab the old Oil Barons (http://www.squakenet.com/computer_games/1780/Oil-Barons/download.html). Checking Detroit or Motor City (AKA Old Timer) would be good too since they made a lot of shortcuts and cheating while still preserving the overall realistic feel of the system. Pizza Tycoon is best for understanding arbitrary creation of customers groups.

Alright, I'll try to look into those sometime.  But you haven't really told me what I don't understand, just that my method is different.

Shouldn't a game always has a small bit of inflation?

Later in the game players expect to have more money than when they started.

That's fine, as long as it's balanced and stable.

[Topazan]

I just thought of some other ways to generate demand and introduce money without NPC buyers.

1.  Item packs.  I had this idea while ago, but I forgot about it.  Say a player needs a certain amount of, say blacksmith tools.  There are several items that can fulfill this need.  A set of tongs is worth 2 points of blacksmith tools, a hammer 5, and an anvil 10.  Generally, players will just make and buy whichever one has the best cost-benefit ratio.  But what if you let them combine them into "packs" that are worth more than the sum of their parts?

A tongs and hammer pack is worth 14 points.
A tongs, hammer, and anvile pack is worth 30 points.

And so on.  This will ensure steady demand for all types of blacksmith tools.

2.  The Neopets questing system.  In neopets, players could seek out or be randomly given quests, which consisted mainly of buying something from the player market and giving it to an NPC.  The rewards were random, and usually worth less than the item(s) needed to complete the quest.  However, once in awhile they were worthwhile, items that couldn't be created any other way or things even that couldn't be bought/traded at all.

This was actually brilliant, IMO, since it created a constant demand for all manner of junk items, and if properly managed could be a good way to control the amount of money/items in the economy.  The randomness keeps players from seeing the manipulation.

[Chris]

I don't know, I wasn't really thinking in terms of "genre".  I was just thinking of a game where players can exchange items and money.  Call it an RPG if you want, or a strategy game, or a simulation.  In any case, I see no reason to let oneself be restricted from useful design choices because of conventions.

For me it's like trying to merge Tetris with Quake, sorry, my mind is unable to comprehend such "sophisticitivness", I won't be able to help you on this one

Single player or multiplayer business games?  Where did you see a game where the community collectively names its sale price?

Single player. As where I saw it? Well, it was called "real life", that's how market forces in capitalism economy works

I still don't understand how there could not be a "place" for this in any game that involves exchanges between players.

I was talking about business sim games not RPGs economy systems, disregard it.

Alright, I'll try to look into those sometime.  But you haven't really told me what I don't understand, just that my method is different.

Not method but goal. I thought you were making business simulation game. Disregard everything I said, it is not compatible with your genre.

[Topazan]

I don't know, I wasn't really thinking in terms of "genre".  I was just thinking of a game where players can exchange items and money.  Call it an RPG if you want, or a strategy game, or a simulation.  In any case, I see no reason to let oneself be restricted from useful design choices because of conventions.

For me it's like trying to merge Tetris with Quake, sorry, my mind is unable to comprehend such "sophisticitivness", I won't be able to help you on this one

Hmm, Quake is an FPS, and Tetris is a puzzle game.  Portal, maybe?  Eh, kind of a stretch I'll admit.  But speaking of merging tetris with things...

Is there a word for the genre of games made up of minigames?  Maybe that's what I'm thinking of.  Like Sid Meier's Pirates! for example.  It had fighting game style fencing, real time tactical ship combat, turn based tactics game land battles, logistical sailing, stealth game... stealth, and rhythm game dancing.   They overlapped in various ways, and several were essential to progress in the main campaign.  Neopets had basically nothing but minigames, which overlapped in various ways.

Single player or multiplayer business games?  Where did you see a game where the community collectively names its sale price?

Single player. As where I saw it? Well, it was called "real life", that's how market forces in capitalism economy works

I'm not so sure.  Maybe in the case of monopolistic competition, but when the goods are identical, I would think the market price is set by the low bidders, not the average.

I guess the main thing is we have different design philosophies.  To be honest, I'm a little confused myself about what I set out to do.