Regular vs elite units

[Chris]

Do you find presence of powerful but rare elite units cool and appealing? Like "Klingon elite empire guard" or "Champions of Northen Elves". Would you like to have such rare units included in your army?

The problem with elite units is that there are 3 cases, all of them bad:
1) elite units are very powerful, so everyone will buy only elite units
2) elite units are balanced with regular units, so the player choose random one and it generally does not matter
3) elite units are too expensive and/or too weak and player will buy only regular units

The only solution I can think of would be some allowance system. A system where elite units are limited by some other mechanic, not by cost (because then you would have to balance them cost effective with regular units, so the boring case 2 would emerge). Maybe some percentage of units in your army (like 10%) that can be turned into elite units? Or you start with a fixed number of elite units and can buy only 1 new per day? Or you can not build elite units and just get 1 per day for free?

Take a note, that *probably* it would not add any tactical decisions to be made, more like for mood...

Is this concept worth pursuing? Or maybe just stick with normal units system?

[Nox]

Yes, I surely do find elite units cool and I thought about the same system of limitation before getting to the part where you mentioned it. That way player won't have them all elite (thus also keeping the meaning of "elite" since when every unit is elite then there isn't really any elite actually), it wouldn't be imbalanced and they won't be unsatisfied about the it since they just can't have more and others can't have more too (or at least not by a large margin depending on the specific mechanic)

The conversion mechanic would depends on other things like the economy/attack targeting/power of elites etc., since then for example: when one is for some reason (maybe just coincidence) not attacked for some time he can convert all his units to elites - especially bad in case there's reasonably reachable limit, either explicit (200 cap) or non-explicit (amount of units sustainable by an average economy)

Starting with elites is a bit weird since then you'd be likely to have more elites with your tiny starting kingdom then with a large empire

[CygnusX]

I love the idea of elite units.  They offer the following:

Enjoyment when unlocking
Enjoyment trying to get the unlock
Enjoyment of making others jealous

As for power/cost concerns, I am trying to model my cost/benefit ratio similar to:

Strength     Cost
Attk 10      1000 cost
Attk 11      1100 * 1.05 cost
Attk 12      1200 * 1.05^2
Attk 13      1300 * 1.05^3

This way, the weaker unit is really the best cost/benefit ratio.  But, with a limited number of recruits to turn into fighters, and diminishing returns on other investments.... the higher units suddenly become viable.  Add in pre-requirements that cause unit type 1 to be unlocked 1 week in, unit type 2 to be unlocked 2 weeks in, etc.... and you have yourself a game!

[Chris]

"when every unit is elite then there isn't really any elite actually" Exactly. The point is elite units are to be unbalanced, these are to be very powerful, more than the rest, these are to be special and are to "own" other units on the battlefield. Situation when elite units and regular are balance results in just... another expensive strong unit, not elite of any kind. The game system as a whole has to be balanced, but elite or other special units/buildings has to be unbalanced.

The important question, "why no one thought about it before"? From experience I know that usually it is that they thought about it but discared it because of some reason I don't see... Why there are no games with elite units allowance? This is bugging me a lot... Are we both (at least I'm not alone on this ) really just unique freaks of nature who were able to invent this awesome concept? Or there is a deep deadly dark hole we don't see here?

Starting with elites can be easily rationalised in the backstory. You just arrived with your knights to the new realm and you are to start training youngsters to your military, they will be inferior obviously. Anyway, I agree that letting the player to earn these units would be probably better. Like you earn glory from battles then you have a bar at the bottom of army page and when it fills up you can buy 1 new elite unit.

[CygnusX]

Archmage has Hero Units?  I'd call these elite...

And they were fun!  It was super nice to get a hero in your army.  The game fails on many levels, imo, though.

[Chris]

I see...

* Hero unit - a unique single unit, you can have only one of each (1x Hercules)
* Elite units - several very powerful units, they come in packs and you can have many copies, money alone is not enough to recruit them (100x Royal lancers)
* Regular units - hordes of average units, they come in packs and you can have many copies, money is all you need to recruit them (10,000x Lancers)

Yes... most games do not use elite allowance system because they use hero system. Implementing both in one game might be too much...

Hmmm... So, we have to choose either heroes or elites? Or maybe both somehow?

[CygnusX]

Archmage has roughly 14 units per race, with 5 races.  With 70 units, plus hero units, I'd hardly say all 70 'base' units were equally strong (especially since there is only one attack type).  The idea, however, is that you don't have access to all 14 units in your race at once.  You gain access to more powerful, more costly units over time (the top 3-4 units in each class would be considered 'elite' imo).  This sets up an interesting decision making tree for the user, making it difficult to choose weather to spend the time/effort/money needed to simply have available to them the stronger unit, or to spend their efforts on things such as buildings, weapons, technologies, etc.  It also increases gamespace, which in turn encourages the user to play again. 

So, I'm not really seeing the conflict you have with this approach?

[Chris]

Do you remember those Red Imperial Guards in Star Wars that followed the emperor everywhere? You could not just buy these units, they were extreme elite. Not unique, but still just several dozens of them existed in the whole galaxy. Not comparable with any even best ultra equipped storm troopers at all. Could be taken down only by hero units (Jedi). That's the effect I'm after

Units that can be bought later and are expensive just are not the same thing. They are just extremely good regular units, but not special.

[CygnusX]

I have never seen star wars....





just kidding, just kidding.   

So, a few dozen in the galaxy, eh?  This could be interesting.  I guess you could have your regular recruits, and then your talented recruits.  Talented recruits are the only type that could be turned into these Imperial Guards.  The only way to receive a talented recruit would be to perform some action you want to enforce, though it may not be the 'best' course of action.  Being promoted by your faction leader into a higher status perhaps?  Starting a faction topic that receives 5+ replies?  Or simply buying a building/technology/other investment that really doesn't add much power to combat?  There are many choices here....

I think you're on the right track with this one.