Author Topic: Google App Engine  (Read 2663 times)

Offline Brandon

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Google App Engine
« on: January 25, 2009, 08:05:01 PM »
I've posted this same bit of information on other BB boards as well, and I figured I would share it here:


If you are a developer and are looking for a good database/webhosting solution, and want it cheap (free), then you really should look no further.  If you haven't done so yet, check out the GAE (Google App Engine):  http://code.google.com/appengine/


This uses a combination of Python, Django, and Big Tables (database).  I fought this for a long time at first, being a php/mysql guy, but since making the change I haven't looked back.  The benefits of using Python/Django far exceed those of PHP/MySQL in the long run.

Scalability, speed, security, and organization.  That is what I have gained.  Using Python/Django you will find that you are finally able to separate your code from your design in a very logical way.  It takes a bit to get used to, and I'll be the first to admit that it is easy to scoff at, at first, but give it a shot.  And again, your webhosting and database hosting are completely free, hosted by Google.

There are some limitations such as a maximum database fetch of 2000 records, but this will teach you how to efficiently write code.

In the coming days/weeks I will be announcing a PPBG that utilizes GAE, to show you the power of this solution and hopefully that will convince some of you to delve into the Python world, specifically using GAE.

Offline AcidicOne

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 08:43:56 PM »
Your show will continue after this short commercial break....
People Like You, Are the Reason People Like Me Need Medication

Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 09:05:34 PM »
Your show will continue after this short commercial break....


I am plugging a free service that, as a developer, I have found to be a wonderful solution.  I posted it to help others who may be looking for some answers about where to begin, or those who want to break out of the PHP/MySQL quagmire.

Although I will make mention that this is absolutely the type of response I was expecting on these boards.  Such a shame.

Offline codestryke

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 09:57:20 PM »
Well it was a bit off the top but hey your excited, cool :) I will look forward to your article or any info you share on your experience.

I do see the fabric of the PHP nucleus going south though. A lot of big developers and contributors are pulling projects etc from the PHP community and moving towards Python. PHP has such a huge base now it's never going to disappear but the times are a changing. I myself have been looking and playing with a bit of python as of late :)

But I will say this I still wouldn't put it on Google's site, I use a lot of Google's tools but I don't trust Google as far as I can throw them. I have an unsettling feeling about putting any of my code on there server for any reason. For those that don't have the money to get a host I can see where this service might be beneficial.



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Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2009, 10:38:48 PM »
Well it was a bit off the top but hey your excited, cool :) I will look forward to your article or any info you share on your experience.

I do see the fabric of the PHP nucleus going south though. A lot of big developers and contributors are pulling projects etc from the PHP community and moving towards Python. PHP has such a huge base now it's never going to disappear but the times are a changing. I myself have been looking and playing with a bit of python as of late :)

But I will say this I still wouldn't put it on Google's site, I use a lot of Google's tools but I don't trust Google as far as I can throw them. I have an unsettling feeling about putting any of my code on there server for any reason. For those that don't have the money to get a host I can see where this service might be beneficial.



Thanks for the reply.

I was definitely in the same mindset as you are, regarding Google hosting my site.  I maintained a dedicated box that I was using for PHP/MySQL, as well as Python, and so I already had the development environment needed to pursue any projects.  But what is so different in hosting with Google than with some random shared hosting site?  I feel much more secure with Google as my host personally.  I see your point, but I put a lot of faith in Google as a company, especially as they release service after service to push web development further.

With my own dedicated box I had unsettling feelings about server load, balance, etc., if any of my projects ever took off.  With Google as my web host, scalability and performance are really a non-issue.

And with regards to PHP starting to go south, I'd say you are absolutely correct.  The main reason being that PHP is an interpreted language, and thus performance and security will always be behind to a certain extent.  It was hard to break out of my PHP shell, but it certainly was liberating.

And yes, I will absolutely be posting some updates as to where I am in my endeavors with my PBBG.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 10:40:51 PM by Brandon »

Offline AcidicOne

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 11:48:28 PM »
The reason i responded to your post like that is quite simple actually. A. that is exactly what it sounded like, a PR for google. B.You are assuming those of use here have not tried python or even looked into it. C This site is aimed at beginners and those looking to further what they have learned,and to share it, PHP is easy to learn, flexible with the majority of free host's and is embedded in the web server,which does not require additional software to get up and running, not to say python is not a more flexible language, PHP is just easier for the beginner :) D. I have to agree with Code,I would not trust google farther then i could throw there smallest employee,they have a tendency to have a almost ludicrous TOS with all of there operations *cough* adsense*cough* Granted again agreeing with code, a lot of there tools do come in handy, analytic's for example is awesome for keeping track of traffic.

Am really not trying to discourage you from posting your experience with GAP, by all means please do, would love to see how it works out for you. But given as said above, it sounded like a very well worded PR pitch,your open admission to have posted it on other boards, and lack of anything other then what we could have simply discovered ourselves reading the Faq. Again I really don't mean to discourage you by any means, I myself was looking at python for awhile as a first language to learn, but simply put PHP for me is just easier to read and setup out of the box.
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Offline pavansss91

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 01:13:04 AM »
i like php/mysql rather than others.
bbgFramework v0.1.3
Sun Database Class v0.3

Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 08:22:03 AM »
The reason i responded to your post like that is quite simple actually. A. that is exactly what it sounded like, a PR for google. B.You are assuming those of use here have not tried python or even looked into it. C This site is aimed at beginners and those looking to further what they have learned,and to share it, PHP is easy to learn, flexible with the majority of free host's and is embedded in the web server,which does not require additional software to get up and running, not to say python is not a more flexible language, PHP is just easier for the beginner :) D. I have to agree with Code,I would not trust google farther then i could throw there smallest employee,they have a tendency to have a almost ludicrous TOS with all of there operations *cough* adsense*cough* Granted again agreeing with code, a lot of there tools do come in handy, analytic's for example is awesome for keeping track of traffic.

Am really not trying to discourage you from posting your experience with GAP, by all means please do, would love to see how it works out for you. But given as said above, it sounded like a very well worded PR pitch,your open admission to have posted it on other boards, and lack of anything other then what we could have simply discovered ourselves reading the Faq. Again I really don't mean to discourage you by any means, I myself was looking at python for awhile as a first language to learn, but simply put PHP for me is just easier to read and setup out of the box.


Fair enough.  I can't imagine Google needing to take aim at low-population forums to get users, but I see your point.

There is no doubt that PHP is easier out of the box, and can still produce the same results (for the most part).  I wouldn't say I've mastered PHP, but I've learned enough to produce anything I really need to (I don't see this as mastering it).  With templating systems it has made great strides in separation of code and content, which is my biggest gripe with most interpreted web languages.  I understand that it means quicker coding, but it also leads to a plethora of problems.

PHP has been my method of choice for about 7 years now, and yes, when you are coding a site with very few functions, PHP is quicker.  Python takes longer to get a project up, but once it is up, the coding is actually quicker, and this especially applies to database interfacing.

I'll post my developer's blog once I get it going.  Thanks for the interest.

Offline Zeggy

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 10:07:44 AM »
Yeah, I tried to get going with app engine, and it seems pretty nice so far.

(I had a question about python when I was using the app engine, maybe you can answer it :) http://community.bbgamezone.net/index.php?topic=1645.0)

Looking forward to your app engine-based game, and even more to your developers blog :D

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 08:23:22 AM »
Ive taken a look today at the google app engine....

interesting, particular their datastore and how they handle transactions.

and the other eyebrow raiser for me was no joins !!!!

still it does come with a large number of benifits, especially to the start-up, or someone with unknow pick-up. I think i may have to consider it for a non-game project that im also working on.

Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 02:38:02 PM »
Ive taken a look today at the google app engine....

interesting, particular their datastore and how they handle transactions.

and the other eyebrow raiser for me was no joins !!!!

still it does come with a large number of benifits, especially to the start-up, or someone with unknow pick-up. I think i may have to consider it for a non-game project that im also working on.

My assumption is that it is best suited for web apps, rather than games, but I am coding a game using GAE specifically to prove this assumption wrong.  So far i am pleasantly surprised at the progressions.

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 02:34:52 AM »
well i would class a game as a web app...but still ;)

yes if your writting something where there will be a larger percentage of reads than writes or the writes are specific to a single user....think stuff like a blog, or forum, or mail, or recipe storage app....or a favorites list...(like.fm, del.ic.us, etc) then its seems ideally suited.

I would love to see how the charging will work for successfull apps that exceed their quotas.....havent found anything on that yet, just stuff saying that it is coming.....

the only other thing that would currently cause concern is the lack of exit strategy....currently (as far as i can see) they have no export/data extraction from the datastore, but at least the python code can be relatively easily transitioned to work with django alone away from the GAE.

Offline Zeggy

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2009, 05:32:17 AM »
Here's the pricing that they expect to use: http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2008/05/announcing-open-signups-expected.html

There's also a python script somewhere that can convert your database from GAE format to mysql and back again. Not sure how effective it is, but it seems to work.

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2009, 06:24:40 AM »
here is an interesting blog i just stumbled over relating to game development on GAE....havent read it all yet but it seems the author had to abandon the attempt after running into a number of GAE limitations..

http://codecrafter.wordpress.com/category/game-development/

should make for some interesting reading.

Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2009, 09:11:44 AM »
Here's the pricing that they expect to use: http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2008/05/announcing-open-signups-expected.html

There's also a python script somewhere that can convert your database from GAE format to mysql and back again. Not sure how effective it is, but it seems to work.

Pricing seems extremely resonable.  If my app was successful enough that it could exceed the free quotas, I would be willing to put up to $500(USD)/mo of my own money into solid hosting, and this would even apply if I wasn't using GAE.  With these quotas, I could easily see myself only having to spend $10-20/mo.

Offline Brandon

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 09:16:13 AM »
here is an interesting blog i just stumbled over relating to game development on GAE....havent read it all yet but it seems the author had to abandon the attempt after running into a number of GAE limitations..

http://codecrafter.wordpress.com/category/game-development/

should make for some interesting reading.

Absolutely, and I can easily see this happening with a lot of webapps, especially if self-imposed limitations are not added, and datastore access is not efficient.  This was one of my biggest issues with pursuing GAE.  Knowing that premium services are on the way, I'm far less worried.  Also, GAE miscalculations and bugs are being worked out.  Some of these bugs were the reason that apps were going over quota.

Offline die4me

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 01:20:51 PM »
I'll wait and see how it goes for other people before deciding on it so if it goes good for anyone please post it.

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 03:59:48 AM »
Well Ive just found out that GAE now supports JVM bassed apps in addition to Python.....(/Me wonders why i didnt hear about this in any of the Java bassed sites i frequent...hmmm)

In my day job im primarily a JAVA Guy....I think i will throw together a simple test game in Java to see how JVM on GAE works.... details to follow...(sooner or later ;) )

Offline Mufasa

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 12:40:10 PM »
But I will say this I still wouldn't put it on Google's site, I use a lot of Google's tools but I don't trust Google as far as I can throw them. I have an unsettling feeling about putting any of my code on there server for any reason. For those that don't have the money to get a host I can see where this service might be beneficial.

That's my thinking. If you're going to put the effort in to learn a new language to be "more efficient" and such, you can't set up your own box (colocated or otherwise)?

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2009, 03:21:24 AM »
Firstly with the trust thing....

Personally i have no problems entrusting acces to my source to a company like google...In fact im considerable more happy to place source where they can get at it rather than with a small to mid sized hosting company.... besides for a company like google I think the risks involved in stealing your source would be more the the rewards....just my 2cents....but i think ive said it before ....Google is the new Microsoft....every one loves to hate em ;)

With regards to server setup....why should i want to bother? Im already a product manager, designer, developer, test engineer, DBA, marketing dude....must i also be a systems admin?....too many hats and not enought heads.....That is one of the selling points of an environment like GAE ....that you dont have to worry about server management....(as it is in many hosting companies too). But that isnt the only benifit of the GAE environment....the other is efortless and effectively unlimited distributed scalability ...

But im starting to  sound like a GAE evangelist and i havent even tried out the JVM environment yet.......

What is really powerfull about supporting a JVM platform is that not only do you get Java, but also all the other languages that can compile to JVM....Groovy, Grails, JRuby for the Ruby dudes, Scala, and a whole host of others....Over the last few years there has been an ever increasing number of languages that can compile to run in the JVM....and many can be directly integrated with Java code, Its giving the JVM a whole lot more tools so rather than having to solve things with the same tool all the time (eg Java) we can turn to Grails if we want a quick Web interface....or Scala if we need to develope a DSL...personally i think this will save the JVM and Java...after all Java was really starting to suffer from major bloat....and age...for some areas of application...

oh dear now im riding another horse....ill stop then and come down from the pulpit...Flame me if you must but in the end its just my opinion.

Offline Zeggy

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 04:53:12 AM »
Just to let you all know, I am developing a facebook app using GAE for hosting. :)

Also, with the support for JVM now, you can use JVM to implement PHP: http://www.caucho.com/resin-3.0/quercus/ as well as other languages, as Scion said.

Offline Helderic

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 06:58:36 AM »
Just to let you all know, I am developing a facebook app using GAE for hosting. :)

Also, with the support for JVM now, you can use JVM to implement PHP: http://www.caucho.com/resin-3.0/quercus/ as well as other languages, as Scion said.

How far into development are you with your Facebook app? Everyone is having alot of issues with Facebook platform lately, if I were you I'd try avoid it and maybe have a look at the other social platforms out there.

Offline Harkins

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2009, 07:12:38 AM »
Facebook is where the players are (hopefully with their wallets). I'm including a Facebook frontend to my game, too.

Visit #bbg on irc.freenode.net to talk browser games anytime.

Offline Scion

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2009, 07:39:44 AM »
yes im on the facebook wagoon too.....one of the reasons why im taking a serious look at GAE...scalability, for the just in case scenario :) ... ive pretty much finished with my prototype ( done in a php framework, i may publish it one day...you never know....its kept me amused for a while... )

Zeggy do you have a blog or anything regarding your experiences with GAE and game dev...id be particularly interested in seeing approaches related to dealing with their data store and how your grouping entities for transactions. From what ive seen over the past few days and last time i looked,  you cannot simply pick up a Relational DB Schema and hope to have work in GAE, at least not performantly.

@Harkins wheres that blog entry....

actually i should probably avoid carrying on about other people blogging...after all i dont blog at all....

EDIT: Oh BTW good to see you knocking about the place Zeggy.....I thought we'd lost you there for a while.




« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 07:41:26 AM by Scion »

Offline Helderic

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Re: Google App Engine
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2009, 08:25:49 AM »
Lol probably a noob question but: How are you guys using the GAE with php? Are you guys all using quercus? Or some other method? And why is no one using python?

 


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