Year in review :: Moving forward

[codestryke]

BBGameZone went down then BBGameZone came back up (albeit without the dot com name).

Thus far our plan for BBG was simple, get it running, get the word out to everyone that it's backup and get things cleaned up. Simple goals, really, but like so many other things it was more work then we imagined. Now things are running pretty smooth and it's time to look to the next year.

Ok to be honest we have almost no plans LOL. We thoroughly enjoy the community we have here and although not the busiest forum on the web we'll take the quality over the quantity. We would like to get some more targeted search traffic or at the very least come up within the first two pages of Google for those that are looking to create web based games. We are also looking more at OpenID, not only for this forum, but for all of eXtremeCast Games.

What would you like to see in the coming year from BBG? (yes, we know the contest) ~

[Chris]

I know I'm not very original but how about... a contest?


Contest!
Contest!
Contest!
Contest!
Contest!

(lol, I think it is the very first time in my life when I used colours and font size in such spammy way on any forum)

[jannesiera]

Better integration with the PBBG Network. (to begin simple: http://buildingbrowsergames.com/ has a nice header)

[KoI]

While tutorials are a good idea, I think what the majority of would-be bbg developers lack out there is application. That's what I lacked when I started building. I could poke around in php/mysql/javascript just fine, but I had a lot of trouble initially applying the basic principles of coding and website creation to game design/development.

The other problem I have with tutorials are that you end up with a collection of tutorials that probably don't work together and that someone on the receiving end may or may not have any idea how to implement. What I have yet to see done in the bbg market, is the start-to-finish development and "how to" of making a relatively complex and playable game. Lots of people would love to run their own game, and lots of those people have no idea where to start.

I'd divide the year up into 24 chapters, and release a chapter every two weeks. You'll build a following along the way, have a playable game at the end, and offer the most comprehensive resource of building a game start to finish that's available on the web. Don't cut corners, and don't make it so simplistic that people lose interest.

[Xavier]

Thank you for making this valuable community available.

I'd suggest writing some articles that look deeper into projects created by users within this
community. To promote them and their games more globally. How about an interview or two?

@Chris How does it feel to be spammy once in a while?

[bbgames]

While tutorials are a good idea, I think what the majority of would-be bbg developers lack out there is application. That's what I lacked when I started building. I could poke around in php/mysql/javascript just fine, but I had a lot of trouble initially applying the basic principles of coding and website creation to game design/development.

The other problem I have with tutorials are that you end up with a collection of tutorials that probably don't work together and that someone on the receiving end may or may not have any idea how to implement. What I have yet to see done in the bbg market, is the start-to-finish development and "how to" of making a relatively complex and playable game. Lots of people would love to run their own game, and lots of those people have no idea where to start.

I'd divide the year up into 24 chapters, and release a chapter every two weeks. You'll build a following along the way, have a playable game at the end, and offer the most comprehensive resource of building a game start to finish that's available on the web. Don't cut corners, and don't make it so simplistic that people lose interest.

I tried to do this when I first started Building Browsergames; it's surprisingly a lot harder than you might think (especially if you want to support multiple languages). How many users want to build a mafia game, vs. a strategy game, vs. an RPG game? How many of them want to include 'advanced' features like in-game chat and realtime PVP?

If someone could provide me with a layout of a start-to-finish tutorial that they think would be valuable to the community, I'd be happy to take a crack at writing it - but as it stands, no one's come to me with a clear idea for what they want other than "a relatively complex and playable game".

[Chris]

What I have yet to see done in the bbg market, is the start-to-finish development and "how to" of making a relatively complex and playable game. Lots of people would love to run their own game, and lots of those people have no idea where to start.

Only the "start" part is reasonable, the "finish" part is not. Anyone who need start-to-finish quide will not make a good game anyway. It simply does not work this way...

@Chris How does it feel to be spammy once in a while?

Marvelous! I love this forum, at last a place when I do not have to be the ultimate paladin of justice and example of all virtues Moreover, no matter what I do here it will not make any of my players quit After several years of being TheAlmightyAndRespectedAdmin you start really appreciating the common life of a mere forum user

[jannesiera]

While tutorials are a good idea, I think what the majority of would-be bbg developers lack out there is application. That's what I lacked when I started building. I could poke around in php/mysql/javascript just fine, but I had a lot of trouble initially applying the basic principles of coding and website creation to game design/development.

The other problem I have with tutorials are that you end up with a collection of tutorials that probably don't work together and that someone on the receiving end may or may not have any idea how to implement. What I have yet to see done in the bbg market, is the start-to-finish development and "how to" of making a relatively complex and playable game. Lots of people would love to run their own game, and lots of those people have no idea where to start.

I'd divide the year up into 24 chapters, and release a chapter every two weeks. You'll build a following along the way, have a playable game at the end, and offer the most comprehensive resource of building a game start to finish that's available on the web. Don't cut corners, and don't make it so simplistic that people lose interest.

I completely agree with you since I experienced this while I started in PBBG development myself. The problem is that it's, like bbgames said, very hard. There are a few factors playing here:

1. It requires a writer with enough experience and insight (in a lot of subjects regarding PBBG development) to write this.
2. This person must be a good (tutorial) writer. Being a good teacher is an art.
3. This person must be willing to commit to this. What you are asking, and what we need, is not a short "get started" tutorial but a carefully designed book. It's not only about programming, it's about development. Teaching design, programming, marketing, teamwork, psychology, creativity ... It's about creating a stronger industry. Setting standards and guidelines, not just about "how do I create my favourite maffia game".
4. This person must have the time and space to do this.
5. There are probably some other important points I have missed here.

If I was able to do it would at least give it a try but I fail for all the points I mentioned here.

[KoI]

It simply does not work this way...

Don't take my use of the term "finish" too literal. I've built and currently maintain dozens of websites for myself and for others, and I'm aware that the "real" management of a website doesn't even start until you actually launch it live, so in that regards, nothing is ever "finished". My point was a series of tutorials unrelated to each other in anything other than they all have to do with bbg development is easier to do, but overall less helpful to someone looking to actually make a game. By "finished" I mean a series of tutorials strung together related to the same game with the end result of having something playable that can be deployed as your own game with options to modify as you see fit, since along the way, you will also have learned the "application" to tailor it however you wish.

I know it's not easy to do, otherwise it would already be out there... but that's why I suggested it, and why I gave a timeline of a year. It's a great way to form up a community and generate interest in your website. I've had my own plans to do this project, but my biggest obstacle has been time.

I think there's a big market out there of people who would love to develop their own game, but don't know how to do it. Giving them a "this is how to build a log in system" tutorial doesn't really further them along much to the end either. It's the, 'this is how it all ties together' that needs to be done... tutorials are in abundance if you look for them.

There are substantial marketing opportunities for this along the way too. In addition to whomever you attract in the following along the way, there are obvious affiliate opportunities for domain registration, web hosting, stats monitoring, book recommendations, etc.

It's a worthwhile endeavor that no one has approached yet... if you can find someone with the skills and time to do it.

[Doidel]

I'd suggest writing some articles that look deeper into projects created by users within this
community. To promote them and their games more globally. How about an interview or two?

I like that idea
Nice community indeed, looking forward to another interesting year.

Best
Doidel

[ST-Mike]

Admins have ignored my deletion request - if you're not going to delete my account then don't have the option there please.

[JGadrow]

I agree, a spotlight article series might be nice. Maybe have Nyx interview codestryke about the extemeCast games as a place to start since, you know, it is your forum. So you should probably be the guinea pig.

And I agree with the statements against creating a start-to-finish guide. All you do is show someone how to copy your game. You can teach the language tools to them (which is accomplished best via the myriad of tutorials out there) and you can teach them game design principles. But you can not teach someone how to be creative.

Why are there good and bad programmers from a client's perspective? The language is the same, sure the syntax can get messy from some programmers, and maybe communication could be improved... But these are all non-client considerations. The difference is that some programmers are able to find creative solutions while others can simply think within the box. The latter type simply do not make good game programmers unless they're copying an existing game: chess, checkers, etc.

*edit - added the  'u' back in forum! lol

[Nox]

@ ST-Mike, JGadrow
Learning the language itself is not the only thing one need to comprehend.
Mainly beginners - after some time they understand cycles, conditions in time also getting data from DB etc. But they lack the big picture, don't know how to create the project as whole, how it works...

Creativity...it's hard to be creative when you don't have almost any knowledge about this particular problem and no experience
Of course it's needed but everything has its limits... should you look at da Vinci's first drawing you might just say he's not talented and can forget any painting...

This is something that appears in tutorials very rarely if ever, yet it's a very important thing...one also not as easy to explain to beginner
Also I rarely see articles about general good coding habits, again very important aspect to learn

I am against the "start-to-finish" guide as presented but I would be totally for some guide about generall concept (code-wise) of the project - that would be the "start" part,
and the "finish" part could be about launching, testing etc. tips based on experience or something, which is imho again not so frequent

[JGadrow]

The status of any individual work is not indicative of someone's creativity. Also, creativity is not defined by talent or ability. Creativity is the ability to come up with something on your own. Whether or not it's any good has no bearing.

Also, I indicated that they also need to learn game design principles. I feel that it's not the programming that those who are looking for a "complete approach" are lacking, it's the game design knowledge. If you know how to program and you know how to make a game... anyone with some small measure of creativity could program a game. Sure, they may need help with complex components... that's to be expected. Everyone needs help now and again.

The beginners almost always share the same condition: not starting with a design document. The game is not designed so they are stumbling around in the dark with no real knowledge of proper game design. Not to say that this is bad. A willingness to stumble around and learn from failures will someday create an individual who has experience.

And there are plenty of resources that already exist out there that handle how to get a good start and how to publish a product. In fact, I don't think it's really a problem with a lack of information as it is with a torrent of irrelevant information or information that is poorly written. The tricky part of that is: what is well-written for one person is not necessarily well-written to another. Also, as was pointed out earlier, this also depends upon the language.

There is a very large sub-segment of the programming community that are not native English speakers. There are many on this forum alone! Unfortunately, with the quality of education here in the U.S., it's getting difficult to tell when someone is not a native English speaker or is just a poorly educated American student. lol

[KoI]

It does exist! i.e. PHP tutorials (or whatever language the person wants to use). Learn the right languages and making the browser based game is all up to the creative side of you.

Right, but it's learning the application side (I'm not talking learning an application, but rather learning how to apply the principles from one aspect like your every day website to making a game website) that a lot of people lack.

For instance, people may know how to make a form, or set up a database, but it's another thing altogether to know how to make a game. I remember actually posting in a forum when I first approached the idea of making a game with something along the lines of 'how do I allow players to attack each other'.  It was a completely juvenile question, but despite knowing how to make forms and such, I had no concept of how to allow people to interact with each other and how you could actually "fight".

The guy over at indie-resource.com set up a video tutorial series of a start-to-finish project (still ongoing), and it's been received well, and has come out very good.  In my opinion his is too simplistic (game is basically attack a creature, use a magic spell, use an item, etc), but it serves the purpose of instruction, and at the end of the day users walk away from each lesson with something easily customized and at least a working knowledge of how to make those adjustments... and that's something a single tutorial that may or may not be easily integrated into your existing creation won't encompass nearly as well.

And I agree with the statements against creating a start-to-finish guide. All you do is show someone how to copy your game.

This isn't accurate at all, and coming from someone that makes a living as a php cert'd guy, I'm a bit surprised to hear this (especially since I agree with most of what you say otherwise). The whole push to opensource among numerous language communities is validation enough that just giving someone your code doesn't mean you've put yourself out of business. If I want to copy some functionality from your game that I think is cool, I don't need your code to do it, so not writing a start-to-finish for a primary reason of 'I don't want my game copied' isn't a good reason.  As has already been pointed out on this forum and others, if someone really wants to copy what you've got, they're going to do it whether you want them to or not.

Besides... you wouldn't do this on an existing game anyway.  There are plenty of things I'm sure you'd want to leave out to keep your own elements you think are cool "private", but it doesn't mean you can't build something solid and fun to play without giving away all of your secrets.

I think some of you are taking the 'start-to-finish' concept and running way to wild with it.  I'm not talking about showing someone how to create World of Warcraft.  I'm saying roll the dice and string together some basic elements and arrive at something playable in the end.  Space game, map, economy, combat, admin, messaging system... boom... there you go, you got your game and a few hundred people saying 'wow, cool!'.

[Chris]

I never understood what is the purpose of tutorials (except the ones that teach basics). You go to sourceforge, select filter as "BrowserGames",  download sources and start reading. You will get to know all you need in a flash. If you can not understand them yet, it means you need to go back to learning general programming first.

I think it might be that some people do not enjoy reading source files at all and think they can be one day good programmers. It is illusion, if reading sources is not fun (even tiny fun or only some types of sources) then you will not be a programmer. It is simply not a hobby for you...

Many people enjoy having the game done. Very few enjoy the process of making the game

[JGadrow]

@KoI I never stated that I cared whether they copied the game or not. Indeed, I am all for open-sourcing. The problem I indicated with that approach was that it doesn't force the person being instructed to be creative. If you're not creative, you can't create. That's just how it works. lol

I'm not against the whole idea. I indicated that I agreed with the commentary that was against it. I do think there would be some value to a resource such as this. Indeed, I'm certain there are plenty of resources on this very subject. Many of the best, in my opinion, just happen to be in a format that seems to be anathema to many now-a-days: a book.

[KoI]

@KoI I never stated that I cared whether they copied the game or not. Indeed, I am all for open-sourcing. The problem I indicated with that approach was that it doesn't force the person being instructed to be creative. If you're not creative, you can't create. That's just how it works. lol

Gotcha, I agree with you except I don't think the point is to teach the creativity any more than an art instructors job is to teach creativity.  I agree that if you're not creative, then you can't create.  But it's another to be creative, and not know how to create. Really what we're talking about here is just providing someone with the tools to apply their creativity. I can't even count how many php books I have, dozens no doubt, and each project oriented one I work through and in the end you get something pretty crappy (visually) that you'd never show a client, but you walk away with the knowledge of how to apply those to real world projects, assuming you already have the creativity.

Indeed, I'm certain there are plenty of resources on this very subject. Many of the best, in my opinion, just happen to be in a format that seems to be anathema to many now-a-days: a book.

Maybe I'm in the wrong then, but I can't find anything out there be it blog or book dedicated to this.  I own the one book released a few years ago related to 'php game programming', which doesn't tackle what we're talking about.  Numerous blogs have been started on the subject, all that I know of either don't follow the format of building on each successive lesson or are inactive (almost always citing time reasons).  You can download source material for a game, but honestly, if you're smart enough to decipher someone else's source you're close to or already at the point of knowing how to make your own game, and you're not really the target market this project is geared at anyway.

I think there's a market for it, and I think it could be a tool to grow a community.  But yeah, it's a time consuming endeavor, no doubt.

[codestryke]

If you're not creative, you can't create. That's just how it works. lol

Another fine quote and probably one of the biggest reasons I'm not a full supporter of open source when it comes to games (BBG games specifically). Just look around the web at the shear number of Mafia games, some of these are great, offer very creative game play but those are the minority. For every 1 creative game there are probably about 200 that just took the free version of McCodes (or worse found a pirated copy of the non-lite versions) and just slapped it up on the web. The same thing happened with Pimp games and to Legend of the Green Dragon (although LOTGD has pretty steep processing requirements so it's not as bad).

Anyone who has tried to put a web site up and gain traffic knows you only have seconds to make an impression. When you get all these low rent copies flying around the web it makes it even harder to have that click realize that you do care and that your site is different. 1 out of a 100 times they'll just see "oh another mafia game, been there done that" and you just lost that click, not because of all your time and effort but because of someone elses lack of time and effort.

The simple fact is browser games are not hard to program. I've said it before and I'll say it again, programming is the easy part, it's what comes after that will help make the successful or not.

[Chris]

Many of the best, in my opinion, just happen to be in a format that seems to be anathema to many now-a-days: a book.

LOL, how true.

I can't even count how many php books I have, dozens no doubt

Try C/C++ books, these are usually several levels better.

You can download source material for a game, but honestly, if you're smart enough to decipher someone else's source you're close to or already at the point of knowing how to make your own game

It is the opposite. If you can not understand other people's game source codes you are nowhere near making your own game. Reading is easier than making.
It's like saying thay someone can make their own spaceship but can not decipher NASA blueprints, it's just impossible

If you can not understand source codes of a game you don't need tutorials how to make games, you need general tutorials about programming.

[JGadrow]

Good points, Chris.

The flaw there lies in that you're looking only for PHP Game Programming. PHP is a language and has nothing to do with the actual development of a game. Game development in general is a topic off of its own and should not be distilled through knowledge of a particular programming language. Learn the process of designing a game. Then learn how to program. Or do them in reverse order, it makes no difference. Just do them separately because they are separate concepts. Once you are familiar with both concepts, then you have the necessary experience to successfully create a game. I'm not defining success as in commercial terms for this purpose. I simply mean it's in a finished state.

To use your art example (because there is actually debate over whether game design is an art) yes, you do not teach creativity. I wasn't implying that you can. A great quote my father has is, "I can teach anyone anything except for a basic sense of curiosity." I feel it's applicable here. You can't teach creativity. You either are, or are not, creative. However, any good art course also doesn't teach you how to create a particular item. They teach you abstract things and leave the assembly of those abstract ideals up to the artist.

Sure, there are classes out there that teach you to "paint the masters" or similar. But the student hasn't effectively learned anything other than how to copy. Now, if you have classes devoted to shading, abstract art, blending colors, visual aesthetic, and other classes. You have the tools necessary to create your own work of art.

[KoI]

I can't even count how many php books I have, dozens no doubt

Try C/C++ books, these are usually several levels better.

I took some C++ in college and that was a mistake for me personally and set me off of programming for a few years.  Again I struggled with applying 'write a program to compute Sally's salary' over to real world projects (this is a criticism I have of most universities though, not just programming classes in general.. I'm an 'applied' person, and college was essentially useless for me for years until I learned I was there less for learning how to do specific things, and more for learning how to learn).  Web languages ended up being better for me personally, just because I could view the results in a real world environment literally within minutes of creation.

It is the opposite. If you can not understand other people's game source codes you are nowhere near making your own game. Reading is easier than making.

We said the same thing didn't we? I essentially said, if someone downloads sourcecode of a game, and can understand the flow and logic within the source, the chances of them being able to make a game given they understand their source material is very good.  At that point, all they really need to learn is syntax once logic is down.

You essentially said if someone cannot understand someone else's source, they probably are no where near to making their own game.

Those two statements are opposite but say the same thing which basically is that someone who doesn't understand sourcecode probably isn't going to be able to make their own game from viewing source... so downloading the source of a complete game does little/nothing to help someone make a game who doesn't understand what they're looking at in the first place.

Likewise, showing someone how to make a log in system that may or may not correspond to how they'd need one done to make their own game, does little to help them make a game either, which is generally why you see people popping from tutorial to tutorial trying to string together elements that don't work all that well together, and producing a game that from a usability standpoint, is full of bugs and looks like crap.  I think we can all look at bbg out there and tell if someone really knew what they were doing, or was just stringing together a bunch of concepts that they managed to get to work together, but didn't really relate.

There is a process that someone with little/no knowledge must go through to be able to make a game worth it's salt, even if the concepts are simple, bringing everything together is the hardest part for a newbie, and I guess I'm having trouble understanding how reading a bunch of tuts unrelated to game design and unrelated to each other is somehow a better learning tool than reading a bunch of tuts related to game design, and all related to each other.

It's like saying thay someone can make their own spaceship but can not decipher NASA blueprints, it's just impossible

It's not like saying that... it's like saying this: anyone that can decipher NASA blueprints (i.e. game source code) could potentially make their own spaceship (their own game)... which probably would be largely true assuming you had access to resources.  80s news was chock full of scares of missile blueprints being smuggled from this location to that location... now we have nukes in the hands of people that shouldn't have them from nothing more than looking at plans.

So my point is the argument of 'anyone that wants to learn how to make a game can just go download sourcecode, or follow a tutorial that has nothing to do with making a game' is pretty nil, and the notion of it being nil is supported when you consider that what we're trying to do is increase the size of our community (i.e. we wouldn't need to increase the size of it if making your own game was as easy as just downloading someone else's source code).

Anyway, kind of moot at this point so I'll drop out.  But I still think there's a real good market (one that can be monetized as well), of showing people how to apply whatever web savvy they have into making games, and the better way to do that than directing them to a tutorial that has little/nothing to do with game design, is to direct them to a place that shows them everything they need to get started.

[Nox]

I get the impression that either you already forget what it means to be beginner or were exceptional so didn't need any guiding

Why it is ok to teach concerete language specifics and creating some small functionalities, but why it's not ok to teach basic principles and how it works and how to assemble it.
Firstly there is no need to just give them code to copy it - you could just teach the basic principles and give advices and share some experience, secondly do you expect them to follow it word by word precisely for the rest of their lives (which is mostly nullified by 1st sentence)?

You don't teach creativity, but I don't think many people can apply creativity when they have little knowledge and no experience. In that phase, perfomance of very creative and not creative at all person would imho be pretty similar.

Yes, they can start totally from the beginning by themselves, making all mistakes that have been done, eventually with working project on their deathbed, but then... why to even bother making any tutorial or having this forum, there are publicly availible manuals and for creative person that should be enough

I agree with much what's been said, don't get me wrong ...as I said, I don't want to describe them the assembly word by word so they can copy it exactly

(I look forward to looking here after years reminding 'what moron i've been and what nonsense I talked' as it usually happens to me so yea, whatever, maybe I'm wrong)

. I remember actually posting in a forum when I first approached the idea of making a game with something along the lines of 'how do I allow players to attack each other'.  It was a completely juvenile question, but despite knowing how to make forms and such, I had no concept of how to allow people to interact with each other and how you could actually "fight".

Exactly! Coincidentaly there was a person the day before yesterday asking the same thing, he had some language knowledge but clearly lacking the bigger picture, how it works

[jannesiera]

I completely agree with Nox. I didn't bother explaining it myself because I have the feeling that it wouldn't matter anyway but since what he says is correct I can at least confirm his point of view.

Discussions here can escalate pretty quickly since it's not easy to explain what you mean very precisely through characters on a screen alone. For example there is already confusion about how such "guide" should contain. Some interpret it as being code example, others as giving directions, others as something else.