Self Hosting - Yay or Nay?

[BaRRaKID]

So, I'm planning on starting my own PBBG, and I'm now trying to decide whats the best strategy to host the game.
Do to financial constrains, and since I'm fairly competent when dealing with servers, I was thinking of self hosting. I'll be buying a new computer soon, and was planning on using the old one as a web server.
ATM I've a 10down/1up connection, but I'm probably changing that to a 120down/6up in the future.
The computer is a AMD Athlon X2 at 3.2G, with 4Gb of RAM, and a 60Gb SSD with two additional 500Gb HDD in a RAID array. The server will also run on Windows Server 2008 (I'm coding in C# and I'm more comfortable with setting up windows servers).
But, I've been reading a lot about the subject and everyone says not to self host, even tough this seems like a decent setup.

So my questions are
- Do you self host or not, and the reasons why.
- What kind of workload should i expect (I'm aiming for around 500 active players)?
- Do you think from your personal experience that this setup could handle that workload?
- If not what kind of setup would you recomend (so I can decide on other alternatives)?

[JGadrow]

Only do this if you're willing to dedicate an entire machine to this task. Additionally, be prepared that your other machines will experience slower connection speeds while the server is running. I tried this once with a 10/1.5 connection and I ended up shutting it down because it ate so many resources I couldn't do anything else with it. All I was running was a forum and I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 pageviews / day. So... the traffic wasn't terribly heavy but it was enough to cripple my hardware.

That having been said. Go ahead and give it a shot! There's no financial investment at this point so what do you really have to lose?

[Chris]

Never self host, never. It would be a nightmare. The reasons are countless (like cats unplugging the cord when you are on holidays).

Besides, you can get a cheap shared host below $5/month that would handle a few hundred players. How much would be your electricity bills for your PC at home plugged on 24/7?

My most important servers are in a pro datacenter with onsite stored fuel for backup power generator for 48 hours and a contract with some company guaranting additional fuel delivery within 24 hours. Fire supression system, 24/7 guards, bio scanners on entry to building, ultra fast access to spare hardware parts in case of breakdown, connection to several network providers... Did I mention that also the price for this luxury is really reasonable?
People self hosting important sites are completly nuts or completely hardcore (or both ).

[JGadrow]

Never self host, never. It would be a nightmare. The reasons are countless (like cats unplugging the cord when you are on holidays).

Not everybody has pets you know.

Besides, you can get a cheap shared host below $5/month that would handle a few hundred players. How much would be your electricity bills for your PC at home plugged on 24/7?

No different for me. I leave my computer on 24/7 anyways.

My most important servers are in a pro datacenter with onsite stored fuel for backup power generator for 48 hours and a contract with some company guaranting additional fuel delivery within 24 hours. Fire supression system, 24/7 guards, bio scanners on entry to building, ultra fast access to spare hardware parts in case of breakdown, connection to several network providers... Did I mention that also the price for this luxury is really reasonable?
People self hosting important sites are completly nuts or completely hardcore (or both ).

All great considerations. However, when just starting out and revenue is completely non-existent, self-hosting can help you figure out if you will even get beyond those 10 friends of yours who said they'll sign up and play to test it out. I think a brand new (web) game from a brand new developer would have a little leeway in quality. Especially if they make it known they'll be upgrading when possible.

[Marek]

My usual advice would be that the time spent setting up and maintaining a server is going to be a larger opportunity cost than the meager pennies that it costs to buy shared hosting.

However if you already have the hardware and the skills, especially if you're hosting on Windows (which is very often more expensive) then maybe you would be saving money. But that's a big maybe.

The problem is that when you're already building something (the game itself) then you're going to have a lot of other things to worry about. Administrating a server at the same time is only going to add more stress onto your plate and I think, quite simply, decrease your chance of success. It's up to you to decide if that's worth saving the money on hosting or not.

[JGadrow]

My usual advice would be that the time spent setting up and maintaining a server is going to be a larger opportunity cost than the meager pennies that it costs to buy shared hosting.

However if you already have the hardware and the skills, especially if you're hosting on Windows (which is very often more expensive) then maybe you would be saving money. But that's a big maybe.

Again, I'll have to disagree. Even if the OP doesn't have the experience setting up the server, it will definitely be a valuable experience for them because somewhere down the line, if they truly are making a web game, they are going to have to either work with a server, or hire somebody to work with a server.

The problem is that when you're already building something (the game itself) then you're going to have a lot of other things to worry about. Administrating a server at the same time is only going to add more stress onto your plate and I think, quite simply, decrease your chance of success. It's up to you to decide if that's worth saving the money on hosting or not.

I agree that when working on one task, interruptions are harmful. However, the OP seems to still be in the planning stages and it's appropriate to think of these things at that point if for no other reason than to determine what sort of financial and personal investment the project is going to require. Assuming the OP hasn't done this before, because it's likely they would have a server already in that case, they could actually perform all of the local development on the machine that they plan to dedicate as a server. That way, they just have to worry about setting up the technical environment for development and doing the actual coding. Then, once the development work is finalized, all they have to do is open the web server component up to the public.

So, looking at this from the perspective of opportunity cost, I believe they would actually be saving time going this route because of the ease of deployment when the development is completed and the knowledge it will gain them - which will be useful once the need to move to dedicated hosting becomes a reality (provided they have enough traffic / revenue / etc.).

[BaRRaKID]

Like was said, at this stage I'm not sure if the game will generate enough (if any) revenue to pay for an external server, so that's way I'm placing self-hosting on the table.
Shared hosting doesn't seem fit. If I decide to sign with an hosting company it will have to be on a dedicated server, and from what I've seen they start at around 150€, which I can't afford at the moment.
Maintaining the server is not really a big issue, because if you do things right the server can run for several weeks, or months, without needing any kind of intervention, and setting it up is rather trivial since have done it, although on a smaller scale, several times before.

I'm probably going to go with self hosting following JGadrow advice, since I really don't have anything to loose at the moment.

[JGadrow]

I have a dedicated server through serverpronto. I don't even have the cheapest option and I only pay about $80 / month.

A friend of mine just went with GoDaddy for VPS. I think he's paying about $30 / month for that. So, if you shop around, you can find something reasonable. But, I just don't think it's necessary for you unless you're further along.

[Chris]

You don't need dedicated, you need at most VPS. These go for $40 (do not use GoDaddy for VPS! The have decend shared but horrible VPS).

[dsheroh]

As a former pro sysadmin, running the server myself is a no-brainer for me, but I'm not sure whether you'd consider it "self-hosting" or not, given that my server is colocated in a tier-1 data center belonging to a major local ISP, not in my home.  It's also no additional cost for me because I already had the server anyhow - I like my email to live on a box that I fully control.

If you don't know system administration and aren't particularly interested in learning it, then I'd advise against running your own server.  Learning enough to get it up and running may not be that bad, but securing it and ongoing maintenance can take up a good deal of time (and the security side can be very easy to get wrong) if you don't know what you're doing, which is where that opportunity cost that nano mentioned comes in.

[BaRRaKID]

I've to use a local hosting provider because many ISPs here still charge extra for international traffic, and although the amount of traffic spent by the game will probably be residual, many people refuse to play games that are not hosted in national servers. I should probably mention that the game is targeted for a local audience, and not international.

The best provider I've found so far is this one:

http://rackspot.com/website/pt/dedicated_servers/all

The prices listed don't include VAT and setup fees, plus they charge 15€/month for using Windows Server, 12,50€ for plesk, 20€ for SQL Server, and 1€ for each ip address. The cheapest one on the list, with all the extras added costs 131€/month 
But it has a 1Gb uplink and 1Tb of monthly traffic.

[Chris]

many people refuse to play games that are not hosted in national servers

I don't see many people being capable of checking the server location And what percentage of geeks who can do it will refuse to play the game? We are talking here about some radiculously tiny numbers...

[JGadrow]

@Chris: They may not be able to tell at first, but they'll know when their ISP sends them a bill with the traffic costs added in.

And, in that case, I would definitely self-host. Just for the record, where do you live? I'd like to avoid ever stopping there to use the internet if possible.

[Barrikor]

I've to use a local hosting provider because many ISPs here still charge extra for international traffic,

What sort of ISP charges long distance for internet? 

[Chris]

Wait, you mean there are some countries where you pay extra for international traffic!? Quite shocking... How they use YouTube or Gmail or... There are so many global service a normal user relies on.

Can't you change target audience? Or first launch english language server and then if successfull go local? If you target a country with such primitive network infrastructure you might be unable to get even financially...

Can't you really start with some local shared host? I was able to hold up to 500 daily players on shared (with extreme optimizations), should be enough at the beginning. Start small, wait till they kick you out and then look for VPS.

[BaRRaKID]

I should rephrase that, they don't charge more, but they have lower download limits for international traffic, and you have to pay more if you go over those limits. It's mostly on ADSL connections tough.
We do have decent cable and fiber optics connections with sane data plans, which should mean that this wouldn't be a problem, but I've seen people refusing to play other games before just because they where not hosted on national servers.
There are other benefits of going with a local hosting provider, like same working ours, no language barriers, same currency, same VAT, etc, etc, so for now it seems like the best option is to host it with a local provider, even tough they are insanely over-priced, when compared with international providers.

Since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer I'll probably try a A/B test. I'll set up two different servers (one will be self hosted, and another one on a shared host) and gather some data on which one performs better. If the shared host performs better I can then remove self-hosting from the table, and do another test on dedicated vs shared to see if the benefits of the dedicated server justify the costs.

[Chris]

no language barriers, same currency, same VAT

LOL. There is no language barrier because your English is sufficient, there is no currency problem because there is PayPal which will auto convert currency, there is no VAT problem because a company starts paying it after reaching 10,000 euro yearly which you won't see anytime soon in BBG business Really, if you enjoy inventing non existing problems, go for it, one competitor less for me

I'll set up two different servers (one will be self hosted, and another one on a shared host) and gather some data on which one performs better.

You still don't get it. You don't have the time for this. You are to use all your time and energy for making and maintaining the game, not comparing hardware. Even if you find self hosting better performing you still can not use it, because you don't want to waste your time setting it up, maintaining, ressolving emergencies, upgrading. Read again what dsheroh wrote, if I were considering what to choose and read such advice written by a pro sysadmin I wouldn't hesitite one second.

[Marek]

Another alternative is a cloud server. It can essentially be a really cheap VPS. With Rackspace cloud servers for instance, you pay 1.5 cents per hour (per 256mb ram). So a minimal server is about 11$ per month. That's a full virtual server, with root access. I would say it's not a bad deal for a testing machine.

[BaRRaKID]

Yeah I'm looking at cloud servers as well since they seem to be much cheaper, I just don't know if there are any major performance (or other) issues with using a cloud server, but the price might justify taking the risk

@Chris, sorry if this seems inappropriate, but you're not being helpful and you're starting to sound arrogant. I'll spend my time on whatever I want. I'm doing this project on my own, and on my free time. If it turns into something big then great for me, if not it will still be a good learning experience and will look great on my portfolio if I ever go back to job hunting. There is no pressure and no illusions, I just feel the need to create something that others can enjoy, and I'm not trying to compete with anyone.
I personally think that it's important to create solid foundations before starting building a house, so excuse me if it seems like I'm spending too much time deciding on the best server setup, but there is no point in making a good game if people can't play it either because your servers are always crashing, are slow, insecure, or can't handle the workload.

[Chris]

@Chris, sorry if this seems inappropriate, but you're not being helpful and you're starting to sound arrogant.

No problem. This particular post was intended to be arogant, so the message I tried to convey would be more clear and obvious. Reading other your posts I got a wrong impressions that you wanted to start doing games as a professional and make a living out of it, and I phrased the post accordingly. Of course most what I wrote do not apply to hobby game making and should be ignored.
As for me using harsher words, I use these only against people I find to have potential and whom I respect (no point telling morons they behave stupid way, only if you tell smart people they do something wrong they might benefit ), sorry if it hurt you, it was not my intention at all.

[JGadrow]

As for me using harsher words, I use these only against people I find to have potential and whom I respect

Wow... you must really respect me! lol I think we disagree on a lot of topics but I don't hold your opinion in any less regard. I enjoy debating. It's a great way to get new ideas and find out things you might not have learn otherwise. Plus, it forces you to really take a look at what you know and learn a bit about yourself and why you do things the way that you do.

[Barrikor]

@ BaRRaKID,

Chris was just trying to drive home a point. Using text to communicate has the downside that the tone-of-voice is left open for each person's brain to decide, usually people subconsciously base it on past experience with the other person and there's no probs... Chris is a great guy and gives good advice.

Back to the original topic, if you A/B tested everything then Dedicated would win hands-down, unless the host completely sucks. Cloud could/should be as good as Dedicated though, but not always in practice, however I do hear good things about Amazon's setup and occasionally others.

I don't want to wade too deep into the subject of self hosting, personally I've never done it. Second-hand I do know that it can be a nightmare if you ever plan on having little kids crawling around your house unplugging things... Plus it'll stress you out if you're on vacation and the server goes offline without restarting... Anyway I've got to concur with Chris on this topic, and IMHO game code should be written to work on any server that runs the language you're using. Your code should be less like "building a house", and more like building a ship. In my opinion anyway...

[Sunchaser]

I have a VPS with aruba, with root access, and, looking into logs, i am seeing that the host is continuosly attacked by tons of malicious scripts. Chris has a point, I am not a systemist and i dont' want to spend time hardening the server ecc. ecc, that is because i am looking into a sort of comanaged service. Btw, anyone of you know if there is around a comanaged service relatively cheap?

[Chris]

Btw, anyone of you know if there is around a comanaged service relatively cheap?

www.knownhost.com They have unhuman uptime and connectivity. Support team response time max 5-15 minutes 24/7 for low priority tickets. I didn't even had a chance to use root access, I just send a ticket containing what I want to have done A dream come true for game owners who want to have non stressfull vacations/trips

[BaRRaKID]

@Barrikor
Funny you mentioned Amazon because I was checking their services just now and came here to see if anyone had any experience using them. Seems like it could be a good solution since the database and game files would be in two different servers, and having Amazon take care of the database should probably mean faster query response times. Still the issue with using international servers stands, but the amount of benefits are starting to make it thought to decide if I should or shouldn't alienate part of the target audience in order to provide a better experience for the rest, adding the possibility of compensating the lost players with players from other countries.
But this could be a potentially cheap and effective setup, get a shared or cloud server to have all the game files, and then use Amazon RDS for the database.

And btw I don't plan on having kids anytime soon, and there's no money for vacations, so.. yeah